2015 WAGC in Bangkok

[HermanHiddema]

They're running McMahon, not Swiss. AFAIK, the bottom bar is at 1k, top bar is at 3d, and there is a supergroup of 32 players.

[DrStraw]

I figured it had to be McMahon of some sort, but for a world championship it seems a little unfair. I would think that Swiss would be better. At the very least they should include a column for McMahon score if that is what they are doing.

[tiger314]

MacMahon at a world championship: that actually disgusts me. When people qualify to a championship, they should all start from the same line, or be in visibly divided B, C... leagues. This is not a sponsored tournament where the organisers/sponsors can seed to their liking, the rule being: if you don't like it, play for someone else's money. A championship of any kind (world, country, youth...) should have fairness as THE most important factor in tournament system design.

Then, one realises that worldwide ranks are a mess on their own. How can someone seed based on rank, which is so drastically different for players of equal strength in different countries?

Tournament Conditions
a. 8-round Swiss system
b. All games to be played on even, with Black giving a 6 ½-point komi.
c. Time allowance of 60 minutes per player, followed by byo-yomi of 30 seconds × 3 times
Tournament clocks will be used for all games.
d. Tournament rules are The World Amateur Go Championship Rules. Any problems that arise
will be settled by the referees.
e. The referees will be Professional Go players appointed by the International Go Federation.

If I got something wrong, please correct me.

[Uberdude]

I think the chances of some unknown 5 kyu from deepest darkest Peru actually being a 9d is so low, likewise the chances of becoming 9d without contact with the outside world so that they could tell the organisers "Hey I'm 5k in Tuvalu but 9d on KGS", that it won't make a difference to the winner. I would actually suspect seeding to make the top 10 places a more accurate reflection of strength and tournament performance so that you avoid some 7th place contender 6d person getting rubbish SOS because they beat a 20 kyu in the first round, whereas their similarly skilled 6d friend with the same number of wins had a luckier draw and beat some mid-table 3d so got more SOS. But yes some undergraded 3k won't get to play as many dan players as in a Swiss. As for the Azerbaijanian 6d I think everyone knows that's a joke by now and I see he is ranked far below Papazoglou even though they are both on 2 wins so that suggests he was sensibly not put in the super group.

[HermanHiddema]

There have been complaints about how shitty the draw is, and how much luck plays a factor in getting a top 10 placement (important to some players for getting subsidies back home) for years now. Using McMahon will give a much fairer reflection of actual performance. There is zero chance that any of those players outside the top 32 have any chance of winning the event (or even getting to the top 10).

[tiger314]

sensibly not put in the super group.

That is exactly the thing that I find OK in most tournaments, but unacceptable in a championship. I would expect objectivity to come first, especially when there is global participation. If a participant's rank isn't good enough to use for drawing, then no ranks should be used at all.

If MacMahon is to be used (and OK, I can now see the motivation behind it), it shouldn't be set according to referee's feeling at the beginning of the tournament (which is the impression I got from the results and reports), but should have rigid and in advance published parameters (size of top group, bars...) preferably avoiding the use of self-declared rank. Otherwise, the impression is that some East European national championships are better prepared in terms of the tournament system than the WAGC.

Especially with Ranka website stating "Players from six continents and assorted islands will gather at the Montien Riverside Hotel in Bangkok for eight rounds of Swiss system competition at this year’s World Amateur Go Championship June 7-10." and a brochure stating that Swiss system is used: http://rankauploads.intergofed.org/36WA ... C_Book.pdf, the system looks quite weird to say the least.

[HermanHiddema]

The ranking is based on EGF ratings, not the feelings of the referee. If a participant does not have an EGF rating (note that most participants from outside Europe do have one, because international events like KPMC, WAGC, WMSG and SAWMG are also input for the EGF rating system), they get one assigned according to their declared rank, which puts any unknown Chinese/Korean/Japanese player (always at least 6d) into the supergroup.

[tiger314]

The ranking is based on EGF ratings, not the feelings of the referee. If a participant does not have an EGF rating (note that most participants from outside Europe do have one, because international events like KPMC, WAGC, WMSG and SAWMG are also input for the EGF rating system), they get one assigned according to their declared rank, which puts any unknown Chinese/Korean/Japanese player (always at least 6d) into the supergroup.

Thanks for the info . Could you please point me to the source?

[HermanHiddema]

Source: Proposal by WAGC referee Martin Finke to the IGF board, which was accepted a few weeks ago. He asked my opinion on it beforehand (at the EYGC), so that's how I know. I'm not sure whether the IGF publish documents or minutes from their meetings anywhere.

[Javaness2]

The IGF of course has the right to change the draw system, although you might expect it to tell its members that it was going to do so in advance. Perhaps it did indeed tell its members in advance about the change, I have on idea. The programme explicitly states that Swiss draw will be used, but it was not used. If this was a deliberate error, and I have no idea if it was deliberate or not*, then I find it distasteful. Fair enough, you make the draw better quality, but why not be honest about what you are planning on doing? For a tournament of this standing, that kind of deception shows a certain lack of respect for normal process. Having said that, I expect very few people particularly cared very much, and some were probably quite pleased with it.


*Can well imagine it was a translation error

[HermanHiddema]

I don't think it is deliberate error, they probably just copy and pasted the text from last year.

[tiger314]

While I respect that certain decisions can be kept secret, like referee nomination procedures, venue selection process... I think that a tournament system should be published in advance. Especially since this is one of the few things many spectators are interested in and that might effect certain players willingness to come.

[Cassandra]

IGF and KBA were fine with that proposal, so what else do you want ?

After round 8, there will be a survey amoung the participants ...

[tiger314]

IGF and KBA were fine with that proposal, so what else do you want ?

After round 8, there will be a survey amoung the participants ...

Is this: https://www.fide.com/FIDE/handbook/regs ... es2016.pdf or this: http://www.iihfworlds2015.com/en/inform ... ent-format or this:

Code: Select all

http://fmjd.org/docs/Annexes/Annex%2017%20World%20Championship%20(all%20categories).pdf 

too much to ask for?

[Cassandra]

Apparently, it takes a lot of time to transfer Western standards on an East Asian Game.