The barrier between DDK and SDK.

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leichtloeslich
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by leichtloeslich »

People in this thread have already told you that at DDK level you can get a serious strength boost just by working on basic tactics.

Case in point:
I would worry about the conflict in the upper left blocking my ladder at P4.
1st of all, thats not a ladder, its a net.
2nd of all, theres this aji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X 9 . |
$$ . . . . . O 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . O X 7 . |
$$ . . . . . O X 6 . |
$$ . . . . O X 1 3 8 |
$$ . . . . O X 2 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+[/go]
3rd of all, with a shape like that I would be more worried about peeps than cuts, since even if the cut worked, you could still squeeze the cutting stones and get some shape.
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by Bill Spight »

Joelnelsonb wrote:Thank you all for the much needed feedback. I think that the worst bad habit I have as of now (I hope) is that it seems that there at least 1 to 2, sometimes 3 places where I finish my shape and don't really think I need another stone, but I'm second guessing myself and say things like "I really can't afford to lose that wall/ influence/ eye space whatever" and so I'll make one more local move, giving away sente.
Second guessing yourself is a bad habit. In such situations you might try and tenuki all the time. Remember my proverb, When in doubt, tenuki. Sometimes that will be wrong, but you can learn from that. :) At your level, a single insight can be worth one stone or more.

Good luck!
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by RobertJasiek »

Joelnelsonb wrote:I think that the worst bad habit I have as of now (I hope) is that it seems that there at least 1 to 2, sometimes 3 places where I finish my shape and don't really think I need another stone, but I'm second guessing myself and say things like "I really can't afford to lose that wall/ influence/ eye space whatever" and so I'll make one more local move, giving away sente. I think the most common example of this is when I have a cut in my shape but I also have the ladder working for me so I haven't blocked it yet. However, I know that a conflict will so take place that could potentially block my ladder and I don't want to be in the middle of a fight and then have to go cover my cut, leaving myself a stone behind. The way I see it, I'm letting my opponent get a stone up regardless but by blocking the cut first, before the fighting begins, I don't have to do it later once a shortage of liberties is in issue. The following is a basic example of what I'm talking about.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to Play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As white, looking at two opposing enclosures at the top, I would worry about the conflict in the upper left blocking my ladder at P4. Especially considering the very weak shape at B16 needing to run into the center.
You ask the wrong questions. You overlook the important questions. You need external advice from books, clubs and / or teachers. In order to get advice about books, see my earlier message.
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by jdl »

Bill Spight wrote:Remember my proverb, When in doubt, tenuki.
If you spray enough weak groups all over the board, white can't possibly attack them all.
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by Bill Spight »

jdl wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Remember my proverb, When in doubt, tenuki.
If you spray enough weak groups all over the board, white can't possibly attack them all.
:lol:
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by Charles Matthews »

jdl wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Remember my proverb, When in doubt, tenuki.
If you spray enough weak groups all over the board, white can't possibly attack them all.
On a scale of, say, 0 to 5, tenuki can take any value. Those who "follow the opponent" around must be assuming that it takes values like 2 or below. If it takes the value 4, and the punishing move locally takes the value 5, then at least you are two plays into a different plan. "After every disaster you have sente", a proverb as dubious as most of them. But at least you have morphed the game, and presumably have some aji left. (No aji is a fairly good indicator that you should not play tenuki.)

If what you leave behind is a weak group, this is more like leaving interesting possibilities for the opponent. Not recommended in general. And not to be too solemn about the whole business, it isn't usually necessary to kill all the weak groups if you just want to win ...

I do get concerned that these advice threads become incoherent, what with the introduction of pet theories,
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by skydyr »

As another take on this, if you are at 12k, there are many different things to work on. Certainly none of your go skills are of professional level. When you are 8k, there will be many different things to work on. Certainly none of your go skills will be professional level, though they may be incrementally better than they were at 12k. There is no barrier in between them. There's no line like "a 9k must be able to read X moves ahead" or anything. Any barrier that's there is in your own mind.

If you are playing a 10k player, they will make numerous mistakes. Their moves are, for the most part, crap. I'm significantly stronger than this, and my moves are still mostly crap moves. There's nothing special about their play. If you want to be an SDK, all you have to do is not play DDK moves.

When you move, think about the move and ask yourself, is this what a 9k player would play? What a 7k player would play? What a stronger player would play? Or is it a DDK move? If it is, what would a stronger player play? Would they let their opponent get away with that? Would they ignore it, because your opponents move is too small?

Don't chicken out. Fight to make your narrative of the game THE narrative of the game, because your opponent's narrative is most likely wrong. Play the move you think a stronger player would play, instead, and see how far it takes you before you decide that there's something fundamentally wrong with your skills.
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by jdl »

Charles Matthews wrote:
jdl wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Remember my proverb, When in doubt, tenuki.
If you spray enough weak groups all over the board, white can't possibly attack them all.
...

I do get concerned that these advice threads become incoherent, what with the introduction of pet theories,
Or with the introduction of jokes, obvious as they may be to most.
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by Knotwilg »

Charles Matthews wrote: I do get concerned that these advice threads become incoherent, what with the introduction of pet theories,
We should have some kind of forum where we can aggregate the advice given and clear it of signature, so that it becomes coherent and supported by a community, rather than a compound of individual contributions of equal weight. Now wait a second ...
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by Joelnelsonb »

The following is a list of books that I've been through:

Go: A Complete Introduction to the Game by Richard Bozulich

Learn to play Go volume II: The way of the Moving Horse by Janice Kim

Double Digit Kyu Games by Neil Moffatt

How Not to Play Go by Yuan Zhou

Mastering the Basics Volume 5: The Basics of Go Strategy by Richard Bozulich

Fundamental Principles of Go by Yilun Yang

38 Basic Josekis by James Davies

In the Beginning by Ikuro Ishigure

Attack and Defense by James Davies

The Direction of Play by Takeo Kajiwara
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by RobertJasiek »

Joelnelsonb, see my answer in the appropriate forum:

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 79#p190979
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by Charles Matthews »

Joelnelsonb wrote:The following is a list of books that I've been through:

Go: A Complete Introduction to the Game by Richard Bozulich

Learn to play Go volume II: The way of the Moving Horse by Janice Kim

Double Digit Kyu Games by Neil Moffatt

How Not to Play Go by Yuan Zhou

Mastering the Basics Volume 5: The Basics of Go Strategy by Richard Bozulich

Fundamental Principles of Go by Yilun Yang

38 Basic Josekis by James Davies

In the Beginning by Ikuro Ishigure

Attack and Defense by James Davies

The Direction of Play by Takeo Kajiwara
I don't know all of these. It is fairly obvious to me that you should not do much reading in "38 Basic" or the Kajiwara book, until you are about 5 kyu. You should read some of "Tesuji" by Davies in depth, instead.

General philosophy: anyone who is improving quickly can read what they like. Anyone on a plateau needs a special diet to sort out some things that are holding them back, rather than being an omnivore. And actually, much the same goes for taking advice from this sort of forum.
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by Joelnelsonb »

Thank you for the responses. I've just purchased "Tesuji" from Apple Go Books and will look into the other two books recommended by RobertJasiek once I've found a good place to purchase them from. Thanks again!
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by oren »

Joelnelsonb wrote:Thank you for the responses. I've just purchased "Tesuji" from Apple Go Books and will look into the other two books recommended by RobertJasiek once I've found a good place to purchase them from. Thanks again!
You can order straight from Jasiek.

http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/
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Re: The barrier between DDK and SDK.

Post by Joelnelsonb »

So tell me what you think: I've decided (among reading more of the proper material for my level and doing more life and death) that I'm going to quit playing DDKs. Even if I never win a game for a long time, I want to always play against better players until I can hang with them. Before, I would set my challenges to be open to anyone a little lower and a little higher than my current rank. This means that if I played poorly for a while and dropped a few kyus, I would adjust the rank restriction accordingly and play weaker players until I got back up. I'm wondering if the community thinks this will be productive or if maybe there's something to be said about playing both stronger and weaker players.
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