Hello everyone.
I created this thread to keep track of typical situations in which I failed to play properly. My hope is that, this way, I'll be able to review them easily in the future so that they can sink in eventually.
Let's begin.
The Kick and Pincer
Usually, kicking the approaching stone and then jumping at 'a' is a suitable strategy to attack White when having already a pincer in place... But what if Black doesn't have this pincer, but kick the approaching stone anyway before pincering around 1 instead of jumping at 'a'?
You can encounter this kind of stuff a lot in Tygem and such. So better to know how to deal with this than to be sorry.
I consulted the Josekipedia, and it turned out that the only sequence good enough for my liking which didn't involve a ladder was this one:
Note that, if the opponent pushes instead of making an empty triangle, since he'll have to come back and connect at 3 anyway, White will have a better result than before.
If the ladder is good for White, she can also turn at 1 and then double hane.
Since the ladder is good for White, Black won't cut like this:
That's it for the Kick and Pincer, but as soon as I find another typical situation in which I failed to play properly, I'll be sure to post it here.
See you soon.
Dontbtme's Notebook
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cyndane
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Re: Dontbtme's Notebook
Thank you, cyndane.
I saw this variation in Josekipedia and forgot it afterwards probably because it wasn't in The 21st Century Dictionary Of Basic Joseki... but after you mentioned it I checked again in Josekipedia, and there, it was Takao Shinji's variation that I couldn't find!
Anyway, the sequence you propose if Black pushes instead of making an empty triangle seems better to me than the one I put (?), so thank you again.
I saw this variation in Josekipedia and forgot it afterwards probably because it wasn't in The 21st Century Dictionary Of Basic Joseki... but after you mentioned it I checked again in Josekipedia, and there, it was Takao Shinji's variation that I couldn't find!
Anyway, the sequence you propose if Black pushes instead of making an empty triangle seems better to me than the one I put (?), so thank you again.
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Re: Dontbtme's Notebook
The Pincer, Back off and Descent
Ok, so, I started using the Guo Juan's Training System a few months ago, and I tried the other day to apply in one of my games a variation deemed to take advantage of the marked stone by descending at 6... But when White pushed at 7, I thought I couldn't hane at 'a' because of the cut at 'b' and retreated by stretching there myself, which was really painful... I checked afterwards Josekipedia, and found this very good variation for Black: Does anyone have an idea why the cut at 'a' would be worse for White than this submissive result? I'm really confused.
Ok, so, I started using the Guo Juan's Training System a few months ago, and I tried the other day to apply in one of my games a variation deemed to take advantage of the marked stone by descending at 6... But when White pushed at 7, I thought I couldn't hane at 'a' because of the cut at 'b' and retreated by stretching there myself, which was really painful... I checked afterwards Josekipedia, and found this very good variation for Black: Does anyone have an idea why the cut at 'a' would be worse for White than this submissive result? I'm really confused.
Last edited by Dontbtme on Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
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EdLee
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taking the center direction ?
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Re: Dontbtme's Notebook
If Black wanted to develop the right side, EdLee, then I believe the knight's move at 'a' would be more efficient than your diagonal move (was it an editing mistake?).
But my question concerned the descent at 'b' which takes away White's eyespace. Why wouldn't White cut at 4 but instead play at 'a' as is suggested in the Josekipedia? So I guess my question is: 'What can Black do after White's cut?'
But my question concerned the descent at 'b' which takes away White's eyespace. Why wouldn't White cut at 4 but instead play at 'a' as is suggested in the Josekipedia? So I guess my question is: 'What can Black do after White's cut?'
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TegaiS
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Re: Dontbtme's Notebook
Certainly, but what I'd like to find is in fact a continuation which would demonstrate in the local context that White's cut was an overplay. Because if it isn't an overplay, then I would have stretched once as Black before making a hane in order to prevent the cut (though that would be painful).TegaiS wrote: As EdLee said the evaluation depends on the rest of the board.
But maybe Black can take the advantage afterwards (in the local context) whatever White does? For example, if she attaches the lone Black stone like this: If this was the best White could do then I'd certainly say she shouldn't have cut and created two groups in the first place, but what if after the attachment, she stretches the other way instead? In this case, I couldn't find a clear way for Black to take (locally) the advantage. Does anyone have an idea how to do it?
Last edited by Dontbtme on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Uberdude
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Re: Dontbtme's Notebook
Why not connect the cutting point on the top side? That would be consistent with your corner move to take white's eyes.
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Re: Dontbtme's Notebook
If Black connects, Uberdude, then I guess we should expect a running fight along those lines, right?
If my sequence is as good as it gets for White (tell me if it's not the case), then if we compare:
_ Black has 1 floating group, territory in the corner plus a potential one on the top side.
_ White has 1 weak group plus a potential territory on the right side which is still open at 'a'...
Hence I'd say Black has the advantage here.
If (and I say 'if') this is the best White can do after playing the marked stone, then I become more and more inclined to think that yes, White (locally) shouldn't have cut after the hane but should indeed have leaned on Black as in the following diagram (thank you Josekipedia):
_ Black has 1 floating group, territory in the corner plus a potential one on the top side.
_ White has 1 weak group plus a potential territory on the right side which is still open at 'a'...
Hence I'd say Black has the advantage here.
If (and I say 'if') this is the best White can do after playing the marked stone, then I become more and more inclined to think that yes, White (locally) shouldn't have cut after the hane but should indeed have leaned on Black as in the following diagram (thank you Josekipedia):
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skydyr
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Re: Dontbtme's Notebook
Once fighting has spread halfway down each side of the board, I feel it is difficult to judge the result without looking at the whole board, since the other corners will determine each players prospects with the weak groups on the sides.
In the first diagram, what if white were to play
in the vicinity of 
instead? If black tries to save the two stones, he will be squeezing out the toothpaste to get white out.
In the first diagram, what if white were to play
in the vicinity of instead? If black tries to save the two stones, he will be squeezing out the toothpaste to get white out.-
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Re: Dontbtme's Notebook
The thing is, skydyr, that I think that White has a serious shape problem with her top group.
If White defends the cutting point with 1 or whatever, then I think 2 is plenty enough for Black.
Even if White goes out first, Black can reinforce himself and the cutting point remains, which means that White has still to connect, and it should lead to something similar to the running fight I proposed two posts ago, except that now the second white group is also weak... So maybe this is even worse for White.
What do you think?
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Uberdude
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Re: Dontbtme's Notebook
I think that fighting looks good for Black, which is to be expected following white's dubious cut. However perhaps white should atari where Black extends after Black's second line crawl before extending his 3 stones to stop Black making such nice shape.
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Dontbtme
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Re: Dontbtme's Notebook
Ok, Uberdude, challenge accepted! 
(This thread is going crazy, I'm glad I started it 
)
So, if I understood correctly, the 1-2-3 sequence is what you think White should do (after the cut), right? I tried my best to come up with good continuations, but if anyone see a suspicious move, you know what to do.
So, I think Black should push once and then jump at 6, which makes miai the attack on either white group. If Black defends the top group with 7 or whatever, Black can attack the right one with something like 8. Black should then take advantage of this fight somehow and have time to come back at the top with an extension around a. Sounds good? But if White defends the right group with something like 1, then, the peep at 2 is very severe. If White connects, then I think Black can simply sacrifice 3 stones to gain a great framework on the top side and be happy with it... If White tries to complicate things, then Black will cut and I really don't think there's much White can do afterwards. Are those variations good enough to agree that, in the following diagram, if White cuts at 'a' instead of playing the hane at 4, she should have (locally) a worse result than this one? Anyone?
(This thread is going crazy, I'm glad I started it )So, if I understood correctly, the 1-2-3 sequence is what you think White should do (after the cut), right? I tried my best to come up with good continuations, but if anyone see a suspicious move, you know what to do.
So, I think Black should push once and then jump at 6, which makes miai the attack on either white group. If Black defends the top group with 7 or whatever, Black can attack the right one with something like 8. Black should then take advantage of this fight somehow and have time to come back at the top with an extension around a. Sounds good? But if White defends the right group with something like 1, then, the peep at 2 is very severe. If White connects, then I think Black can simply sacrifice 3 stones to gain a great framework on the top side and be happy with it... If White tries to complicate things, then Black will cut and I really don't think there's much White can do afterwards. Are those variations good enough to agree that, in the following diagram, if White cuts at 'a' instead of playing the hane at 4, she should have (locally) a worse result than this one? Anyone?
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Re: Dontbtme's Notebook
Black's shape is too thin to attack strongly as in your 1st diagram if this ladder works:
I would think about pushing on the right a few times and seeing if after that you can peep and then throw some loose net around white that he has to play bad moves to break out of or live (unlikely to actually die with the 2nd line attachment at the top).
I would think about pushing on the right a few times and seeing if after that you can peep and then throw some loose net around white that he has to play bad moves to break out of or live (unlikely to actually die with the 2nd line attachment at the top).