Why would White respond at 2? Seems like katte yomi to me.Pippen wrote:Black looks better here for me. White may have some corner points, but without further potential and Black has sente to play 7. Since I play my split fuseki it is a real question if a high approach at 1 or a low at 2 is better for Black. Maybe a low approach at 2 so far from the split stone (4 points between) is not so good, kind of a shape thing to continue high. I think I'll need a congress of split-fuseki-dogmatics to solve it^^.
Who stands better in this fuseki?
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Bill Spight
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Is this early Ko-fight good for Black or did Black make a mistake before? (And which move was it then?)
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Shaddy
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
This is an interesting position. Normally as soon as I see a ko in the fuseki, I think that whoever takes first will win the game, but this is different. Black has one more ko threat at the 3-5 point in the top left corner (both players can wedge a knight's move for one). White doesn't gain a lot if he wins the ko, because Black is thick around, but if Black wins it there's a bunch of junk White stones left on the board.
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ez4u
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
As Shaddy wrote, Black has a very solid position and more ko threats. So White made a mistake here, not Black. If White began with the play at S4, then the extension to R9 was too far. It should have been atPippen wrote: Is this early Ko-fight good for Black or did Black make a mistake before? (And which move was it then?)
instead. If White started with the splitting play at R9, then she should have finished with a reinforcement at 
instead of playing elsewhere.Dave Sigaty
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Shaddy
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
My evaluation is that Black has ko threats at E17 and E4, and White has one at Q15. Black shouldn't answer any other threat.
I'd like to hear from a stronger player, too. I don't have a good idea for how big the Q15/E4 threats are; they look big enough to me, but I could be swayed.
I'd like to hear from a stronger player, too. I don't have a good idea for how big the Q15/E4 threats are; they look big enough to me, but I could be swayed.
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ez4u
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
To my eye they do not look equally big. Black might have (another) advantage here. Consider the case where Black plays the E4 threat below and White finishes the ko. The continuation shown is one we can find pretty often in pro games. The 'a' through 'd' exchanges normally follow. If Black extends along the bottom, e.g. 'e', it seems to me that Black is OK. Black's upper right corner has been weakened somewhat by losing the ko but White's lower left is still not completely safe either. Next consider if White answers Black's threat and then plays Q15. If the same continuation occurs, it seems to me that White has little joy on the right side and must seek compensation for the ko by attacking the upper Black stones. This does not look so easy because there are no other weak Black stones on the board. It is not clear that Black's corner stones are weaker than White's right-side stones. What do others think?Shaddy wrote:My evaluation is that Black has ko threats at E17 and E4, and White has one at Q15. Black shouldn't answer any other threat.
I'd like to hear from a stronger player, too. I don't have a good idea for how big the Q15/E4 threats are; they look big enough to me, but I could be swayed.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
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Uberdude
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Just a side point about technique: if you are going to extend far with r9 which means you might sacrifice the 2 stones (perhaps answer r7 at r12 if the ko is unappealing now) then you shouldn't play the 2-2 corner clamp. At best you lose a ko threat and at worse you lost options to use the cut in other ways.
Also White's use of the second line approach to that large knight corner enclosure is suspect.
Also White's use of the second line approach to that large knight corner enclosure is suspect.
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
This is from a pro game:
Can somebody show why White doesn't play 'a'? What would the sequence look like with which Black would punish White's 'a'? I played a little around and didn't see a clear advantage happening for Black after White plays 'a'.
Can somebody show why White doesn't play 'a'? What would the sequence look like with which Black would punish White's 'a'? I played a little around and didn't see a clear advantage happening for Black after White plays 'a'.
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ez4u
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
What did White play instead?
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
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Uberdude
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Breaking through white's corner seems pretty obvious and fine for black. For example:
Or perhaps better not to play the ataris so you can keep the outside atari.
Or perhaps better not to play the ataris so you can keep the outside atari.
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Pippen
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
@Überdude: Referring to your diagrams for me White get's life & points in the corner plus sente while Black just gets a group in gote that needs one more move to make a base. That is what troubles me. Is this really that good for Black?
@ez4u: The pro (Rui Naiwei) played:
@ez4u: The pro (Rui Naiwei) played:
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Uberdude
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Black doesn't just get a group in gote. He separates white's previously connected stones, making a broken shape through white's knight's move and blights c14. White loses her potential on the left side, and black gets some there instead. It can take some time for the value of such topoligical changes to become apparent. Take a look at the drmwc vs Joaz malkovich for an example of the long-term value of separating. You are right though that the wall doesn't have a base yet, so black should be careful.Pippen wrote:@Überdude: Referring to your diagrams for me White get's life & points in the corner plus sente while Black just gets a group in gote that needs one more move to make a base. That is what troubles me. Is this really that good for Black?
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Bill Spight
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
To second what Uberdude says, the White stone on C-14 is plainly poorly placed, while, say, the Black stone on F-17 is not.Uberdude wrote:Black doesn't just get a group in gote. He separates white's previously connected stones, making a broken shape through white's knight's move and blights c14. White loses her potential on the left side, and black gets some there instead. It can take some time for the value of such topoligical changes to become apparent. Take a look at the drmwc vs Joaz malkovich for an example of the long-term value of separating. You are right though that the wall doesn't have a base yet, so black should be careful.Pippen wrote:@Überdude: Referring to your diagrams for me White get's life & points in the corner plus sente while Black just gets a group in gote that needs one more move to make a base. That is what troubles me. Is this really that good for Black?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Pippen
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Black to move. Best move? And then I feel I can do something with F3 right away. But I am not familiar with these situations. What is the purpose if one moves F3 - splitting White's chain? Just running out? What would a possible sequence look like if Black was to decide to do something with F3 right away?