Eh? The top side is more interesting because the top left is a white stone so k16 becomes weak, whereas bottom right is black so r11 is not so weak. Also in such a contact fight in black's area getting any stable group is a success, don't be too insistent on where it is. (In fact if we had that result of black defending at b and white getting a I would probably take white even if I had no komi).Celebrir wrote: I feel like the right side is more intresting, therefore I would like to take the decision from B.
Cele's try to create controlled complexity
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Uberdude
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
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Celebrir
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Yesterday in my local playgroup I played the following joseki:
Every move for B seemed natural so far, but I was quite worried about what to do now. I played a which gave me a bad result. Therefore I did some research:
just unplayable and should be at 
?
Every move for B seemed natural so far, but I was quite worried about what to do now. I played a which gave me a bad result. Therefore I did some research:
- Eidogo lists as beeing tricked
- Josekipedia declares this pattern as a best move pattern but ends on this move with the comment "Complicate position" and suggesting three moves as questions: b,c and d
just unplayable and should be at ?-
Uberdude
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
First thing is white should make sure to have the ladder otherwise ď cut is trouble. If you change 4 and 6 order you can find many continuations in josekipedia.com.
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Celebrir
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Thanks, I totally missed that change in the move order!Uberdude wrote:First thing is white should make sure to have the ladder otherwise ď cut is trouble. If you change 4 and 6 order you can find many continuations in josekipedia.com.
With my last games I wasn't very happy:
at M17
I was still happy with the game but from there on it got down the hill...
B can play at 
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Celebrir
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Currently I'm experimenting a little bit with the mokuhazushi corners. While I did the following showed up:
I hoped W would play at a to allow me to extend at b.
What happened in the game:
What I'm thinking about now:
I hoped W would play at a to allow me to extend at b.
What happened in the game:
? Should I have played at a to fight? But then W at b seems just painful...-
Uberdude
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
If your opponent doesn't continue in the normal place in the joseki (i.e. jump out at top to prevent getting closed in) then play there yourself should be first thought of what to do to take advantage of that:
Your 4 is a small move: 4-5 is a good exchange for white. He didn't need to jump to 5, he could have come out at the top. But your game result is ok as he still needs another move in the corner, but you would rather have not made the 4-5 exchange.
P.S. What's going on in the top left? That looks like someone tried to make a joseki and failed rather than play moves that make local sense.
Or because white has a strong position on the top left the turn isn't actually so big (only big to threaten white corner, not for your potential there) so I might be tempted to simply tenuki if white can't attack you much (pushing a second time made you stronger). f2 looks big. Or something on the left moyo but that's all weird with your second line stone. Or (ninja-d by ez4u) take the corner for yourself with the slide and make white play the boring area.
Your 4 is a small move: 4-5 is a good exchange for white. He didn't need to jump to 5, he could have come out at the top. But your game result is ok as he still needs another move in the corner, but you would rather have not made the 4-5 exchange.
P.S. What's going on in the top left? That looks like someone tried to make a joseki and failed rather than play moves that make local sense.
Or because white has a strong position on the top left the turn isn't actually so big (only big to threaten white corner, not for your potential there) so I might be tempted to simply tenuki if white can't attack you much (pushing a second time made you stronger). f2 looks big. Or something on the left moyo but that's all weird with your second line stone. Or (ninja-d by ez4u) take the corner for yourself with the slide and make white play the boring area.
Last edited by Uberdude on Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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ez4u
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
The problem is that White's strong position in the upper left makes the top uninteresting. White understood this better than Black. When White extended you should have slid into the corner rather than block the top.
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Celebrir
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
I kinda feared this because all my sense say it looks terrible:Uberdude wrote:Your 4 is a small move: 4-5 is a good exchange for white. He didn't need to jump to 5, he could have come out at the top. But your game result is ok as he still needs another move in the corner, but you would rather have not made the 4-5 exchange.
Now a invasion at a seems completly weird while it might have been possible at 6.2 with the
exchange.I like the idea of sliding into the corner. I guess I have to improve on making the opponent play in the unintresting idea, that plan didn't occur to me at this time.
Yeah, that was me messing up the joseki I played the most times with something I didn't realized before:Uberdude wrote: P.S. What's going on in the top left? That looks like someone tried to make a joseki and failed rather than play moves that make local sense.
I'm used that much to my opponents playing at a that I didn't realized the change before I already played at
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Celebrir
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
I had a weird corner seqeunce in this 3-stone handicap game on ogs today:
The game:
Of course every comment is welcome, but here is the situation that I thought over the most:
(edit: Fixed diagram indexes)
The game:
looks very weird, but I'm not sure I did the correct continution. a looks forced, but can you maybe play at b or c?
but B's shape looks very weird to me.
Last edited by Celebrir on Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Knotwilg
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
A good idea to play with is to increase the size of the sacrifice.
A stone in atari has 1 liberty. If you add a stone, the chain (usually) has 3 liberties and after White's next move, it still has 2 liberties. This gives you additional tempo to do something with the rest of position.
So, it's not "either add a stone and save that part OR sacrifice" but also consider "add a stone AND sacrifice".
Have a look at how this idea can be applied in your situation.
A stone in atari has 1 liberty. If you add a stone, the chain (usually) has 3 liberties and after White's next move, it still has 2 liberties. This gives you additional tempo to do something with the rest of position.
So, it's not "either add a stone and save that part OR sacrifice" but also consider "add a stone AND sacrifice".
Have a look at how this idea can be applied in your situation.
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Celebrir
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Yeah, I did that but discarded it relativly fast becauseKnotwilg wrote:A good idea to play with is to increase the size of the sacrifice.
A stone in atari has 1 liberty. If you add a stone, the chain (usually) has 3 liberties and after White's next move, it still has 2 liberties. This gives you additional tempo to do something with the rest of position.
So, it's not "either add a stone and save that part OR sacrifice" but also consider "add a stone AND sacrifice".
Have a look at how this idea can be applied in your situation.
at 7.4 (The game variation) seems to make a sacrifice very hard because I can't cut the right anymore:This seems to be better than 7.3 but still like a big advantage to W
This only adds some forcing moves I could have added in the game as well later but after them I have the choice between living in the corner (a) and sacrificing and cutting (b). This might be the best cutting sequence but it still feels like a success for W in the corner.
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Good attempts. The important thing is that you consider it.
You could even sacrifice twice. After this sequence, there's still a bit of aji in the original
chain. The points marked "a" are sente.
White must now consider answering at ''b'' which might be heavy. I assume you have a bit of strength in the lower left to back up your tactics here. I'm not sure this is actualy a good result, but it feels better than living small in the corner.
Edit: this technique is described at Sensei's: http://senseis.xmp.net/?AddASecondStoneAndSacrificeBoth
You could even sacrifice twice. After this sequence, there's still a bit of aji in the original
chain. The points marked "a" are sente.White must now consider answering at ''b'' which might be heavy. I assume you have a bit of strength in the lower left to back up your tactics here. I'm not sure this is actualy a good result, but it feels better than living small in the corner.
Edit: this technique is described at Sensei's: http://senseis.xmp.net/?AddASecondStoneAndSacrificeBoth
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skydyr
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
This sequence looks reasonable to me. Perhaps
could be an atari at D18 to disconnect in sente, and black can follow up against either side or get a favourable ko, if you want to be more direct?In the sequence you posted, black still has some nice attacking moves to play against the top group and the pincer stone isn't looking all that spectacular, especially with a black LL corner.
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Celebrir
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
That is a great idea which I have to admit I missed. In theory I know this technique but I guess not good enought to actually remember it in a game situation.Knotwilg wrote:You could even sacrifice twice. After this sequence, there's still a bit of aji in the original
White must now consider answering at ''b'' which might be heavy. I assume you have a bit of strength in the lower left to back up your tactics here. I'm not sure this is actualy a good result, but it feels better than living small in the corner.
Edit: this technique is described at Sensei's: http://senseis.xmp.net/?AddASecondStoneAndSacrificeBoth
The atari is a good idea, I missed that I don't have to protect atskydyr wrote:This sequence looks reasonable to me. Perhaps
in that case."LL" corner means living corner ? The problem was more that both of his groups were stable while my center group was not. At least that is how it was played in the gameskydyr wrote:In the sequence you posted, black still has some nice attacking moves to play against the top group and the pincer stone isn't looking all that spectacular, especially with a black LL corner.
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Uberdude
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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity
Even in the game where you lived in the corner you got a far worse result than you could have done. Why did you play a17? Think about more efficient ways to accomplish the same goal.