http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lists

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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by yoyoma »

John Fairbairn wrote:
In the go4go database, she has a 6-1 result from 1997 to 2001, that's why her 2000 rating is good.


Remi: The 2000 rating list is headed 2000-01-01. So not only should it not reflect the results for 2001, surely it shouldn't include the results for 2000 either. On that basis, go4go has just two games, for 1997, scoring 1-1. It's well known I'm not a numbers guy, so what's the trap I've fallen into?

Another male-female pair to watch for is Yi Chi-hyeon.


Rémi is the expert, but the way I understand it is that in WHR, for the year 2000, all games from all years effect her rating. It's just that those from 2000 affect it most strongly. Games from 1 year before and 1 year after still have an effect but less. And games from 2 years ago too but even less.
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by Kirby »

yoyoma wrote:Rémi is the expert, but the way I understand it is that in WHR, for the year 2000, all games from all years effect her rating. It's just that those from 2000 affect it most strongly. Games from 1 year before and 1 year after still have an effect but less. And games from 2 years ago too but even less.


I took John's point to be, rather, that for a rating list labeled as "January 1, 2000", games after that date should not be included in the calculation.
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by ez4u »

Kirby wrote:
yoyoma wrote:Rémi is the expert, but the way I understand it is that in WHR, for the year 2000, all games from all years effect her rating. It's just that those from 2000 affect it most strongly. Games from 1 year before and 1 year after still have an effect but less. And games from 2 years ago too but even less.


I took John's point to be, rather, that for a rating list labeled as "January 1, 2000", games after that date should not be included in the calculation.

That position is not necessarily logical. The fact that we can't use games that have not yet been played in order to estimate someone's strength as of today, is quite different from claiming that games played today should not be used in estimating someone's strength as of yesterday. It seems just as reasonable to include games played one month (or year) after a particular date as it is to use games played one month (or year) before that date if they are available.
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by Kirby »

ez4u wrote:That position is not necessarily logical. The fact that we can't use games that have not yet been played in order to estimate someone's strength as of today, is quite different from claiming that games played today should not be used in estimating someone's strength as of yesterday. It seems just as reasonable to include games played one month (or year) after a particular date as it is to use games played one month (or year) before that date if they are available.


Kind of fuzzy either way, in my opinion. On one hand, you might argue that games from the following year provide additional data for estimating the player's strength around that time.

But this assumes that the player's games from 2001 are good data points to estimate someone's strength in 2000. Maybe it's true if they haven't improved (or gotten worse) much in that year.

But if their strength is changing over the course of the year, it's a bad assumption.
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by ez4u »

Kirby wrote:
ez4u wrote:That position is not necessarily logical. The fact that we can't use games that have not yet been played in order to estimate someone's strength as of today, is quite different from claiming that games played today should not be used in estimating someone's strength as of yesterday. It seems just as reasonable to include games played one month (or year) after a particular date as it is to use games played one month (or year) before that date if they are available.


Kind of fuzzy either way, in my opinion. On one hand, you might argue that games from the following year provide additional data for estimating the player's strength around that time.

But this assumes that the player's games from 2001 are good data points to estimate someone's strength in 2000. Maybe it's true if they haven't improved (or gotten worse) much in that year.

But if their strength is changing over the course of the year, it's a bad assumption.

But equally bad whether you look forward or back. So basically we are SOL.
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by Kirby »

ez4u wrote:But equally bad whether you look forward or back. So basically we are SOL.


Well, I thought that the point of this historical ratings was to have a range. So when I read a category labeled as '2000-01-01', I interpreted this to be a snapshot of the rank at that point in time (i.e. 2000-01-01 was the end of the range).

I thought that was why the '2015-01-01' category has a different set of results than the one on the main page - even though it's still 2015, I thought that the listing from '2015-01-01' was a snapshot ending at that point in time.

If that interpretation is correct, I don't think it's good to include data from after the snapshot.
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by John Fairbairn »

But if their strength is changing over the course of the year, it's a bad assumption.


This, and other points made by Kirby, reflect what I think is a valid point of view. And, by the merest fluke, there was some support from that on the very day (but afterwards) that I posted my doubts.

I discovered (to my horror) that a very famous (or, better, notorious) game by Inoue Genan Inseki against Honinbo Jowa was not in the GoGoD database. It is now! In the course of transcribing it, my eye naturally wandered to the surrounding commentary. The significance of this game was that Jowa had included it, along with some others from the same short period, in a now famous book. Genan was incensed because Jowa had not included any games of his (Genan's) from the period just after, when he had made a significant improvement. He believed therefore that Jowa was trying to belittle him.

Now if we follow the grading-list maths argument, and we could view only the Elo-type number and not the actual games, yes, it sounds plausible to say that Genan's poor grading in 1822 based on that year alone could be massaged by using his games in 1823 and 1824 and so better reflect his true strength in 1822. That is, Genan was worrying about nothing but the merest blip.

But Genan himself would say hooey to that, and if you look at the actual games you'd be inclined to agree with him. The famous game in question is famous/notorious because it shows Genan (then pretty strong at 5-dan) getting into all sorts of bad-shape tangles under 6-dan Jowa's relentlessly forensic investigation of his weaknesses. But most of all, it features an eye-popping example of a "White to live and die" situation - White can live but in the process wipes out a huge territory of his own, so loses the game. Even amateurs, reading Jowa's book, could not fail to be swayed by such an egregious example. Furthermore, Genan himself claimed he did make a big improvement after that game (and who are we to gainsay a man who reached Meijin status not too long after.) To repeat, it would apparently have been quite wrong, in Genan's view, to massage his 1822 rating with 1824 games.

In the first case I was talking about, Hyeon Mi-chin's, even on the figures from go4go alone, I posit that her case might be similar, simply because in the relevant period she apparently did not improve much, i.e. took a rather long time to go from 1-dan to 2-dan. As it happens, and as I have already mentioned, the extra games for that period that GoGoD has, also suggest her rating should be downgraded. On top of all of that, it is well known that players do go through several slumps in a long career. Why try to hide them?

At any rate, it seems to me there are two scenarios: (1) a player's rating can be massaged by using later results, presumably in the hope of ironing out irregularities, or smoothing the curve, and (2) a snapshot based on games up to a specific time but not beyond can be presented.

I'm in mirkest glen on this. I've read books like Freakonomics and I'm aware of statistical traps it is possible to fall into unthinkingly. But my intuition (that word again!) still tells me that for historical assessments at least, the raw snapshot is more reliable (even though it can produce glitches such as red-eye) than cropping and photoshopping the image.
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by Rémi »

John Fairbairn wrote:Remi: The 2000 rating list is headed 2000-01-01. So not only should it not reflect the results for 2001, surely it shouldn't include the results for 2000 either. On that basis, go4go has just two games, for 1997, scoring 1-1. It's well known I'm not a numbers guy, so what's the trap I've fallen into?


The WHR rating algorithm has retroactive effect: the rating of one day depends on games of the past and games of the future. That is what makes it more accurate than incremental rating algorithms.
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by wineandgolover »

It's just curve smoothing. If a player has a good performance in year n-1, a bad year n, and a good year n+1, the curve will dip in year n, and rise in year n+1 either way, just more extremely in the case excluding future information.

I understand the intuitiveness of excluding future data, and the desirability of lowering variance by including it.

I don't necessarily buy the argument that just because there are more published losses of an ancient player in year n, and more published wins in year n+1, that the player magically improved significantly. First, old game records are incomplete, and there could be a bias in those that survived. Second, performance is naturally variable, and just because a player's performance dips in year n doesn't mean they got worse at go. Nor does an improvement in year n+1 mean they got better. Of course, we are all, even pros, subject to a recency bias.

Overall, I like the variability reduction, and appreciate Remi's WHR approach.
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by John Fairbairn »

This seems to me to be a variant of the precision versus accuracy debate. I'd have thought precision was more relevant in historical ratings (as here). In other words, we want to precisely know how good someone's peak was, not with the peak worn down by performances when a player was past his prime.
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by Kirby »

I still feel that a rating snapshot at time labeled X shouldn't include data after X. That way, each rating snapshot is comparable to the snapshot of today, what's listed on the front page of goratings.org. For today's snapshot, future data isn't available, so to make earlier snapshots 1-to-1 comparable, I'd assume the same method to be used for those calculations.

For past snapshots, future data may allow to make a "smoother" prediction of rating, but it is inconsistent with the snapshot as of today, since today's ratings don't have future data to work with.
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by ez4u »

John Fairbairn wrote:This seems to me to be a variant of the precision versus accuracy debate. I'd have thought precision was more relevant in historical ratings (as here). In other words, we want to precisely know how good someone's peak was, not with the peak worn down by performances when a player was past his prime.

If we include past games but not future, we are not measuring the peak (until we are well past it anyway). We are measuring the average slope leading up to the peak. I believe that the 'intuitiveness' of including past games is just another example of what Kahneman calls 'Answering an Easier Question' in chapter 9 of his book "Thinking, Fast and Slow", which Tami reminded us of a few posts ago in another thread (and I was looking back through earlier today ;-) ).

What do I (or he really) mean? We would like to answer the question,"Who is the strongest Go player in the world right now?" Alternatively, "Where does (insert the name of your favorite player) rank in the world right now?" These are extremely difficult questions due mainly to the immediacy of 'right now'. Ask yourself how we would possibly answer those exact questions. We never do (except inconclusively by arguing back and forth on these forums and any number of bars around the world).

Instead of answering these questions we substitute easier questions such as, "Who is the highest rated player in the world right now based on the XYZ rating algorithm, which uses historical data from the last 180 days (or 1 year, 5 years, or all historical data on games played)?" This is a much easier question and has become the standard approach in chess, tennis, golf, and various other sports and games, including Go. The answer produced is not without controversy due to the presence of competing algorithms and alternative data sources but we are used to this approach. We have 'learned' that this is the proper way these things are done.

We don't like it when some wise guy like Remi wants to rock the boat and include the future too. That undercuts the story that we have been telling ourselves about the 'proper' way to do things. Not only that but once we open that door to the future we also undercut all the current results. The ratings for August will have to be revised when we finally see the results of October's games (face palm)! But in fact isn't that exactly what happens with more informal reputations and interpretations of events? So-and-so wins a couple of titles, goes 25 and 2 over six months and is obviously the next great hope. Then (s)he goes 4 and 15 over the next four months and it becomes 'obvious' that they were just a flash in the pan, beneficiary of a run of luck. Well we have just adjusted our opinion retroactively. Most of us at least will not continue to believe that So-and-so was a tremendously gifted player who unfortunately peaked and declined in a matter of months. We will in fact reevaluate our past judgment and conclude that they were just lucky. Notice that if we have some handy answer (e.g. So-and-so suffers a serious stroke and is clearly mentally and physically impaired), we may be able to get away with continuing to believe that they had the stuff of true greatness back at that precise point in time. That is, the future will never contradict the story that we built in the past.
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by emeraldemon »

How about this situation: John F finds a never-before-seen game between two players, say Inoue Genan Inseki against Honinbo Jowa in 1823. Because John has become so rich from finding this game, he offers you $1000 if you can guess who won the game before he shows it to everyone. Do you look at the games from 1824 in making your guess? Or do you only look at games played before the new-found game?
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by Kirby »

The more I think about this, the more I agree with the way the historical lists are currently implemented. My concern earlier was that there's inconsistency between today's rating list and the historical lists, since future data is not available for today's rating list.

But if you have the data for the historical lists, why not use it?

I guess my position changed, in light of the new data I observed from this discussion :-)
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Re: http://www.goratings.org/ now has historical ratings lis

Post by ez4u »

Kirby wrote:The more I think about this, the more I agree with the way the historical lists are currently implemented. My concern earlier was that there's inconsistency between today's rating list and the historical lists, since future data is not available for today's rating list.

But if you have the data for the historical lists, why not use it?

I guess my position changed, in light of the new data I observed from this discussion :-)

Wow! With that kind of flexibility on display I am worried you might be outgrowing L19.
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