Is anything wrong with this joseki variant?

Alexfrog · Post by **Alexfrog** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:30 am

In the 3-4 high approach, inside contact joseki, I have started playing the following move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X O . . . $$ | . . X , O . O . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

1 is a space further out than the standard joseki.

Is this move possible or Is there a flaw in it? I cannot even find it listed as an option in joseki databases.

So far in my 8 kyu level games, my opponents don't have any idea how to punish it, and the result seems to be that I get a larger corner than in the standard joseki. I've tried going through a few lines but cant find an easy way for white to punish. I feel like this move has been helping me win some more games.

Can someone stronger explain why this move isn't considered a normal response?

Thanks!

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:59 am

Myungwan said it was fine. Pros have played it, too. Maybe you have pro intuition ;-)

I guess it's an example of how joseki changes over time. Having a wider extension has more aji, I guess, but I don't know of a way to "punish" black.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:29 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X O . . . $$ | . . X , O O . . . $$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If White played the solid connection, he has the option of pressing Black into a low position. This option is not easily available if White played the hanging connection.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X O . . . $$ | . . X , O . O . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . a . . . . $$ | . . X b . . . . . $$ | . f c . . . . . . $$ | . e d . . . . . .[/go]

The hanging connection should be accompanied with some extension along the upper side or to the center, so I presume this and therefore life and stability of the hanging connection.

A White stone on, in particular, one of the labelled intersections affects the stability of the black shape and creates aji. If Black needs to reinforce, he might end up with having played one stone too many: inefficient. If, during the late opening or middle game, White can play on one of the labelled intersections in sente and Black needs to reply further on the outside (e.g. to prevent a too big white sphere of influence), then White can attack the black extension. In other words, it was an improper move instead of a honte and White succeeds in punishing this. Constructing such a punishment is not easy. Looking through Japanese pro games until 1985, in similar situations White would often succeed with constructing a punishment. In more modern games, great flexibility plays a greater role and Black would maybe allow White's local success but compensate it by greater speed and initiative elsewhere on the board.

Judged only locally, Black should play the proper move. Judged globally, great flexibility is a valid alternative playing style.

Maybe the variant need not be called "joseki", but its full appreciation requires a global strategic context.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:47 am

This move is often sente in the "joseki" version:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X O . . . $$ | . . X , O O . . . $$ | . . . W . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:07 am

Searching through pro games, it seems that pros play this more commonly in this situation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Variation A $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X O . . . $$ | . . X , O . O . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . B . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

than in this situation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Variation B $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X O . . . $$ | . . X , O O . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . B . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Nonetheless, pros have played both on multiple occasions.

There are at least 18 games in the last two years where pros have played Variation A.

Alexfrog · Post by **Alexfrog** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:11 am

Alright, it seems that its a possible joseki play since its been played in pro games.

The drawback seems to be that it leaves more aji, not that it is tactically flawed in any way.

Several times my opponents have seen the unusual move and responded by immediately trying to cut it because they think they should be able to punish my unusual move, and each time it seems to just result in me getting a larger corner than normal.

What they should be doing is leaving it until later and then trying to use the aji.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:21 am

I'm still open to the idea that this new shape is superior to the old one, since it seems to have become more popular recently. Joseki changes over time, and what used to be joseki sometimes becomes non-joseki later.

That being said:
1. It may just be popular these days because it's a fad. Maybe pros can't think of a way to really exploit the aji these days so it's popular. Maybe the opinion will change later.
2. If you can read two moves further than your opponent, it doesn't really matter if you play this joseki or the other one. Not to say that this isn't an interesting topic :-)

Alexfrog · Post by **Alexfrog** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:24 am

Kirby wrote:2. If you can read two moves further than your opponent, it doesn't really matter if you play this joseki or the other one. Not to say that this isn't an interesting topic

Very true!

I think the fact that my 8 kyu opponents probably havent seen it and dont have a clue what to do about it also helps in my case, though that probably isnt an 'advantage' of this move for Dan players.

oren · Post by **oren** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:02 pm

Here's one pro example.

There's probably nothing wrong at all with the sequence. Kim Myungwan made a lecture about it and showed it at the Seattle Go Center a month or two ago.

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:21 pm

oren wrote:Here's one pro example.

Please note that the special shape in the lower right corner is left untouched for about 100 moves.

TegaiS · Post by **TegaiS** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:18 pm

Why black resigned?

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