massive disparity online and offline

[Hushfield]

It could be that when you play face-to-face, you gain some information by reading your opponent's body language? That's a real skill too, but unfortunately can't be used online.

A while back, when I was really into poker, I used to look for tells in my opponents, and look at the positions their eyes where focused on, as to double-check for some important tenuki's. To be honest: this strategy was utter rubbish and the time spent looking at my opponents was time not spent reading. I usually lost those games and now I don't do it at all. If I do look up at my opponent in real-life games it's only after I've killed something big enough to ensure a win. Never ever, before that, my eyes stay fixed on the goban now.

[kokomi]

Everybody is different in that regard. I know an EGF-1d-player who is only 9k on DGS (i.e. around my strength), so over the board he could probably give me six stones. On DGS and OGS I could beat two other players that have beaten me on tournaments. You're not alone, so don't worry too much.

Either he's sandbagging or DGS rating is funny. I cannot think any other explanation.
No matter how careless you play, you won't drop 8 stones.

[kokomi]

I'm one or two stones weaker on kgs. I play rather carelessly online. And it's very easy to click 'resign' when playing online, e.g. when my internet connection suddenly becomes bad, or i made a move that i don't like later, or my opponent plays bad or my opponent plays too slow/multi tasking, etc... I mean it's rarely be the case in real world that i'll resign for those reasons.

[apetresc]

Everyone suffers from this. It's just the lack of "pressure" from online games. There is really no benefit for playing seriously online right now. They are not worth anything. So I think it's normal for you to be this way. In all honesty, it's just a lot more enjoyable in person anyways. I think once you get used to it(people like to overplay a lot more online), you'll probably get stronger overall. I would say that you should not worry about it too much.

I have the opposite impression; in real life, there's no pressure because the game is ephemeral, once the stones are put away the only thing that remains is you and your opponent's memories of the game. Online, the game is stored for perpetuity, and I know lots of people who regularly check out their friends' past games. Not to mention that the amount of observers in an online game is typically much higher than a random game at the club.

I feel much more free to make mistakes in real life -- who cares, nobody will remember by next week anyway -- whereas online you have to suffer through the post-game review and people asking you "What were you thinking with S3 here?! It clearly doesn't work"

[Dusk Eagle]

I personally find that online (real-time) play puts a lot more pressure on me to not screw up. I actually get very stressed out when I want to start an online game and the pressure often stops me from playing altogether. Once I'm in a game though, I feel relieved of that pressure. However, if I play an opponent who makes bad moves yet still ends up beating me, I feel even worse. Or, if I play an opponent who just doesn't know when to give up, I get agitated much easier online. Offline though, it's totally different. I look forward to playing over-the-board games, and I find it easier both to shrug off my mistakes and to learn new things.

However, despite this difference in attitude, I haven't noticed myself being particularly stronger or weaker online or offline. I do feel, however, that my games end up feeling like a different style of play offline than online, but maybe that's just my imagination.

[kirkmc]

I don't play "strangers" like that - I play those games with a few friends I have on KGS who like playing slow games too.

Sounds good to me. It would be nice to have some rivals like that on KGS. But that's not the typical model, where people put up a game for anyone to challenge (or are themselves challengers).

That's how I play most of my games, but I have a half-dozen or so "regulars" I play with, many of whom are more than interested in playing long, slow games.

[cdybeijing]

Thanks everyone for the comments.

Everyone suffers from this. It's just the lack of "pressure" from online games. There is really no benefit for playing seriously online right now. They are not worth anything. So I think it's normal for you to be this way. In all honesty, it's just a lot more enjoyable in person anyways. I think once you get used to it(people like to overplay a lot more online), you'll probably get stronger overall. I would say that you should not worry about it too much.

I have the opposite impression; in real life, there's no pressure because the game is ephemeral, once the stones are put away the only thing that remains is you and your opponent's memories of the game. Online, the game is stored for perpetuity, and I know lots of people who regularly check out their friends' past games. Not to mention that the amount of observers in an online game is typically much higher than a random game at the club.

I feel much more free to make mistakes in real life -- who cares, nobody will remember by next week anyway -- whereas online you have to suffer through the post-game review and people asking you "What were you thinking with S3 here?! It clearly doesn't work"

I do often have several observers of my games, because most of my over the board opponents also play on KGS. I think it does affect me somewhat, but not to such a great extent.

As far as reading body language, I'm sure this information is there subconsciously, but I'm generally just more astute in these games.

I think on the whole just many small factors add up to making me feel uncomfortable about internet games: 2D board; instant "clickability" factor; social pressure of observers; opponents' reluctance to resign; occasional stress of bad connection; and of course, being psyched out by playing on the internet.

It mostly bothers me because I have to be associated with that number that is my ranking, and all of my go friends know the account. I have thought about deranking my account, but that just seems like I would be avoiding the problem.

[dfan]

I personally find that online (real-time) play puts a lot more pressure on me to not screw up. I actually get very stressed out when I want to start an online game and the pressure often stops me from playing altogether. Once I'm in a game though, I feel relieved of that pressure.

I have the same experience playing online.

[Li Kao]

For me the social pressure is much higher in offline games. And seeing shapes is much easier on a small 2D board where the stones are perfectly placed.

[balmung]

Hi all:

I wonder if anyone has shared my experience, which probably many of you will not believe. I play at least 4 and possibly 5 stones weaker online than in my over the board games. This not related to timing either, as I own and regularly use a digital clock in my over the board games.

The disparity has been validated to such an extent that I am convinced there is no self-deception at work. I regularly play and beat 2 and 3 kyu kgs players over the board and win. I play my 2 dan kgs friend over the board with 2 stones competitively. In the local go club I attend in Beijing, I play the (self described )1 dans even and do win games. I play the 2 and 3 dans even as well, and lose, but not embarassingly.

On KGS I am 7k.

At my local go club, I give my friend, a well established KGS 7k, 3 stones without much difficulty.

This is a familiar pattern for me. When I was a teenager studying chess, I was around 1950 - 2000 USCF, battle tested in many tournaments, and my ICC blitz rating would hover around 1700. I have never been able to concentrate on the online game; I feel I can't or don't read well on the 2D screen, and of course it is much easier to be impulsive. In my KGS games, I am often amassing overwhelming positions, 30 - 40+ point leads in the middlegame, and then playing long strings of serious tactical howlers that would be absolutely unthinkable over the board. Reviewing the games is worthless because it is not a strength issue; I am very aware that I am playing horrible moves as I play them or shortly after.

Has anyone ever had a similar problem? I believe it is primarily psychological and then partially related to 2D / 3D perception and the differing stimuli of playing with stones and goban vs playing on a computer.

The same thing happened to me in chess my FCIS is 1400 Although I can topple over most class A's with ease it seems my internet rating's under rate me. My tournament chess is still provisional and will take a while to bring up, but I do play USCF 1800-2000 and have really close games whether I win or lose. About Go I don't know I have no strong player that live near me so I have never played otb.

[Dusk Eagle]

Like balmung, I could play chess fairly well back when I did play, but I could never play online to save my life. I would constantly overlook moves that would have been painfully obvious to me if I was playing in person.

[Mike]

I personally find that online (real-time) play puts a lot more pressure on me to not screw up. I actually get very stressed out when I want to start an online game and the pressure often stops me from playing altogether. Once I'm in a game though, I feel relieved of that pressure. However, if I play an opponent who makes bad moves yet still ends up beating me, I feel even worse. Or, if I play an opponent who just doesn't know when to give up, I get agitated much easier online. Offline though, it's totally different. I look forward to playing over-the-board games, and I find it easier both to shrug off my mistakes and to learn new things.

However, despite this difference in attitude, I haven't noticed myself being particularly stronger or weaker online or offline. I do feel, however, that my games end up feeling like a different style of play offline than online, but maybe that's just my imagination.

I have the same thing as you described. I often just put off playing online completely, because it just feels so pressuring..

But I am also weaker online, or rather.. inconsistent, I'd say. My main account that I play ranked games with is 2k and I constantly lose to 1-3k players who play ridiculously bad moves and it just angers me to no end. On a real board, I'd beat these same players. But then I also have my other account that I got to 2d and then stopped ranked games and only play free. I play against 1-3d just fine, win some, lose some. I really like these games a lot more.

I don't know why it is that online play and especially online play against kyus makes me so .. Bad. I've been trying to fix it, but I just don't know how.

[Loons]

Mike, what I notice online sometimes - when switching from KGS to IGS, is that the "trick plays" common on the servers are different. Coming up against tricks and overplays that feel wrong but you're not familiar with might make you appear weaker.

[karaklis]

I personally find that online (real-time) play puts a lot more pressure on me to not screw up. I actually get very stressed out when I want to start an online game and the pressure often stops me from playing altogether. Once I'm in a game though, I feel relieved of that pressure.

Same over here. My original diagnosis was OGA but I am not really sure whether it's exactly that.

[cdybeijing]

I personally find that online (real-time) play puts a lot more pressure on me to not screw up. I actually get very stressed out when I want to start an online game and the pressure often stops me from playing altogether. Once I'm in a game though, I feel relieved of that pressure.

Same over here. My original diagnosis was OGA but I am not really sure whether it's exactly that.

It's interesting to note that there is actually a page in Sensei's about online go anxiety. Maybe I just need a psychiatrist