Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

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andreyl
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by andreyl »

@white
Hane is fine
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emeraldemon
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by emeraldemon »

Merry Christmas :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 2 3 8 O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Kirby »

@black:
This one?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O B X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@black:
Kirby wrote:This one?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O B X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We could play that. They have to give us the two stones, of course. But trying to live underneath is an option too. This may require some serious thinking.
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Kirby »

@black:

Still haven't been studying Go much, lately, but taking the two stones on top seems simple and pretty good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . C C C C C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . C C C C C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O B C C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O B O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We have great thickness and also sente. We could attack the left white stone, for example. It cost us the points that white gains on the top. Maybe 16 points or so (marked - white has the corner points whether or not we live on top).

Alternatively, if we live on top, let's say it goes like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Actually, it might not be bad, but it's less clear to me about the result.

White might seal us in:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Although, I admit it might not be that bad for us, given white has a weakness around 'a'.

So I suppose...

Taking Two Stones
Pros: Thick, Sente, Simple variation that seems good
Cons: Give white 15~20 points

Living on top
Pros: Don't give white 15 points; Still somewhat strong on the left; White's stones have aji.
Cons: Not as thick as taking two stones; white has room for more variation; if we're sealed in, white can have a better position against our top right star stone.


@black:
I currently still lean toward taking two stones. Though, living on top seems playable.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@BLACK:
Kirby wrote:...
White might seal us in:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I don't think that we can play 27 that low:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 9 7 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I think that we are safer like this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Kirby wrote:...
...Taking Two Stones
Pros: Thick, Sente, ...


Sente may be the deciding issue here.
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Kirby »

@black:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:I don't think that we can play 27 that low:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 9 7 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 X O O X O . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


There's also aji around 'a' and 'b'.

Anyway, I think getting sealed in like this hurts the top right star-point stone, so I still think taking two stones is better.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@black:
Kirby wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:I don't think that we can play 27 that low:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 9 7 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 X O O X O . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


There's also aji around 'a' and 'b'.

Anyway, I think getting sealed in like this hurts the top right star-point stone, so I still think taking two stones is better.


All that we know for sure is that playing 27 at J18 is a bad idea. But it does not therefore follow that we must take the two stones.
We can play 27 at J17.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Kirby »

@black

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
All that we know for sure is that playing 27 at J18 is a bad idea.


I don't follow your logic. I like 27@J18 better than at J17. If white plays as you suggested, we live (as I showed), and white has terrible shape.

"It does not therefore follow" that J18 is a bad idea. Sorry if it sounds snarky, but that's the gist I got from your reply.

Anyway, capturing two stones in sente still seems like a good idea.
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by TegaiS »

@black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 X O O X O . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


On this variation:
1) White will have better shape if play K18 immediatly without wJ17 bH18 exchange.
2) @Kirby. Why :b33: at D18 and not at C18?
3) In this variation we threaten to kill the White's corner so it will be sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 3 5 . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O 4 6 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


1) In this variation we end in gote but I think that the difference with taking two stones is not 16 point but more than 30.
2) If White play :w2: it is better to have our stone at J18 not at J17.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Playing :w2: from the other side probably doesn't work at all.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . X X . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 2 . 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@Kirby:
Kirby wrote:... sounds snarky, but that's the gist I got from your reply...


Kirby, I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I did not intend it to. I'm not trying to be snarky at all.

I think that we have a sincere difference of opinion about two different moves, and we misunderstood each other.

...more later...
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@BLACK:

( Warning: long post. I recommend getting some munchies before clicking on 'show' )

The current position looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . c b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and there are, IMHO, three reasonable possibilities ( a, b and c ).

They end up in about six different positions.

1) Kill the two stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 2 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This variation is short and simple, with no branches. We come out strong and solid, and with sente. However, we give up a bunch of territory.

2) The extension.

This move buys some aji, and then transposes into #1.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 3 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Again, there are no branches.

The improvement is this: if we start with position #1, and then extend with :b1: , white would never play :w2:. Instead, they would play 'd' as below.
So :w2: is misplaced.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 1 . d e e . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O X . . e e . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


If we can make white play :w2: in exchange for :b1: ,then later, any black move at 'd' or various points 'e' is a threat to extract the three stones. This may give us greater flexibility when we play in the upper right.

3) The hane with squeeze

Assuming that white submits to the squeeze with :w4: below, we end up in this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 6 fills
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Then there are two main branches that white can choose:

3A: White blocks from the west

Black strolls eastward making territory. White can never hane because of the weakness at 'f'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X X 2 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O 3 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O f . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Overall this seems pretty good for black.

3B: White blocks from the east

This is more complicated. Everything from :w5: onward is just a guess.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 . . X X . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 X O O X X 1 . 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure who is ahead here. I tend to like black.

4) The hane with squeeze declined.

White can refuse to submit to the squeeze, and fight with :w4:
Black's potential eyespace is ruined by :w4: , so :b5: is forced.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 6 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks similar to position #1, but white is lower. This can't be any worse for us than #1.

5) The hane without attempting the squeeze.

If white is determined not to let black live on the top, and is willing to accept position #4 to ensure that, then if black really wants to live up top the only way for black to force it is to skip the squeeze and play :b3: at F18:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 1 g . 7 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 2 O X 5 6 . 0 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Because of the eye at E16/F16, there is little incentive for black to push eastward, so we push westward and white seals us in. We must finish in gote - probably at 'g' - or we die.
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@BLACK:
My preference is to aim for position #3. They will probably do the minmax analysis and decide to settle for #4.

If you guys prefer #1, I strongly suggest that we play #2 which transposes into #1 - with a slight improvement.
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Kirby »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:@Kirby:
Kirby wrote:... sounds snarky, but that's the gist I got from your reply...


Kirby, I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I did not intend it to. I'm not trying to be snarky at all.

I think that we have a sincere difference of opinion about two different moves, and we misunderstood each other.

...more later...


@Joaz
Well, I'll be straightforward with you.

I don't really care that much about playing this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


vs. this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I don't appreciate that you brush off the first variation by simply saying:
I don't think that we can play 27 that low.


and then later after I showed that the move lives:
All that we know for sure is that playing 27 at J18 is a bad idea.



Maybe J17 is better than J18. I don't really know.

But I admit I'm a little upset that you said J18 is bad without explaining why. It lives, just like J18, even if it gets surrounded. And if white tightly surrounds like you suggested, we have more aji than in the variations where white cleanly surrounds the J18 variation.

So maybe J18 is bad. But as far as I can tell, we haven't clearly established why, and that's why I'm a little peeved.

Aside from that, in effort to move the game forward, I'm OK with any of J17, J18, E16, or H18.
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@TegaiS:
Any thoughts on this?
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