Hi,
Here is a diagram from my last game against a 5k.
In this situation, what is best for black ? To reply at A, invade at B, or something else ?
I chose B, and white ignored, to reduce the bottom. I think it's good for black, but messed up.
So locally, what is the proper sequence to enclose white and keep as much of the bottom as possible ?
Does this move have a name or a sensei's page ?
Thanks !
Two questions from a game
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Hushfield
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Re: Two questions from a game
I couldn't find the position on Sensei's library with the search position function, so I used the MoyoGo pro game database. In the majority of the pro games I checked A was immediately played by black. This was around 75% of all games, but there was still a large amount of pro's that didn't play the move, but attacked in sente somewhere else first, and came back to it later.
As I'm probably somewhat weaker than you are, I could be way off the mark here, but I think it's a question of the balance of territories. The A you proposed is a very big move for black, but it's solely territorial, and definitely gote. So I think that if it doesn't put you behind in the game, it's a way to simplify the game, which is a good thing I believe. In this game however, I think you are already behind in territory, so I don't think that is an option.
I also have a question about Black B: it seems like a severe attacking move. Would it be possible to play one line higher, on the fourth line, to combine attacking and building the right side for black? playing just one or two moves there, then coming back to A would still leave black behind in secure territory, but put him ahead in influence. Or do I have the wrong idea here?
As to how to deal with the white ikken tobi on the lower side, there were three answers that occured in pro games:
1) The sequence Black A, White B, Black C
2) Just Black C (white often leaves the position for another part of the board at this point)
3) Tenuki. Not defending the territory in the first place seems to provoke this response quite often from pro's in this position.
As I'm probably somewhat weaker than you are, I could be way off the mark here, but I think it's a question of the balance of territories. The A you proposed is a very big move for black, but it's solely territorial, and definitely gote. So I think that if it doesn't put you behind in the game, it's a way to simplify the game, which is a good thing I believe. In this game however, I think you are already behind in territory, so I don't think that is an option.
I also have a question about Black B: it seems like a severe attacking move. Would it be possible to play one line higher, on the fourth line, to combine attacking and building the right side for black? playing just one or two moves there, then coming back to A would still leave black behind in secure territory, but put him ahead in influence. Or do I have the wrong idea here?
As to how to deal with the white ikken tobi on the lower side, there were three answers that occured in pro games:
1) The sequence Black A, White B, Black C
2) Just Black C (white often leaves the position for another part of the board at this point)
3) Tenuki. Not defending the territory in the first place seems to provoke this response quite often from pro's in this position.
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: Two questions from a game
I would want to invade this corner very soon if not immediately. I don't believe white can kill you.
Invading at 'b' in your original diagram also seems like a fine plan to me. You also have this possibility I believe:
Since you will still have the possibility to invade at 'a' and reduce at 'b', this seems okay as well to me (though I could be totally wrong).
However, defending the bottom just doesn't seem like an active enough plan.
Invading at 'b' in your original diagram also seems like a fine plan to me. You also have this possibility I believe:
Since you will still have the possibility to invade at 'a' and reduce at 'b', this seems okay as well to me (though I could be totally wrong).
However, defending the bottom just doesn't seem like an active enough plan.
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No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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lorill
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Re: Two questions from a game
Hushfield wrote:I couldn't find the position on Sensei's library with the search position function, so I used the MoyoGo pro game database. In the majority of the pro games I checked A was immediately played by black.
I'm not sure if this information is reliable. Surely, a pro wouldn't have played
if it was gote and bigger points were available elsewhere (such as B in this example).I also have a question about Black B: it seems like a severe attacking move. Would it be possible to play one line higher, on the fourth line, to combine attacking and building the right side for black?
We'll need to wait for someone stronger to reply, but this feels too easy for white.
As to how to deal with the white ikken tobi on the lower side, there were three answers that occured in pro games:
1) The sequence Black A, White B, Black C
2) Just Black C (white often leaves the position for another part of the board at this point)
3) Tenuki. Not defending the territory in the first place seems to provoke this response quite often from pro's in this position.
Thanks. I did the more frequent sequence without knowing it then, but it's still painfull for black.
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flOvermind
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Re: Two questions from a game
Hushfield wrote:I also have a question about Black B: it seems like a severe attacking move. Would it be possible to play one line higher, on the fourth line, to combine attacking and building the right side for black? playing just one or two moves there, then coming back to A would still leave black behind in secure territory, but put him ahead in influence. Or do I have the wrong idea here?
Usually, this b is bad because of this sequence:
That's a lot of secure territory for only a little influence.
The usual reduction point is at a, or at b if black is weak in the area.
See http://senseis.xmp.net/?ThreeSpaceExtensionInvasions
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Harleqin
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Re: Two questions from a game
White has strange shape on the left side. I would try to find something there first, perhaps like this:
White certainly should not ignore the invasion on top.
If White chooses an iron pillar, Black can close off the lower side:
So, White will perhaps play this:
By the way, since this has been mentioned: the lower left corner is not easily invadable at the moment:
White certainly should not ignore the invasion on top.
If White chooses an iron pillar, Black can close off the lower side:
So, White will perhaps play this:
By the way, since this has been mentioned: the lower left corner is not easily invadable at the moment:
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: Two questions from a game
Ah, I missed 
as a response. Thanks Harleqin.
as a response. Thanks Harleqin.We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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unkx80
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Re: Two questions from a game
Notice that black is thick everywhere. One move that comes to my mind is this.
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Horibe
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Re: Two questions from a game
Harleqin's comments are very good. In the diagram above, j17 is an interesting response to white 2 - there are many ways to go, but white will need to be careful because of the black stones on the upper left.
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emeraldemon
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Re: Two questions from a game
Here's an attempt at responding to the reduction:
I think with the move mentioned above B will have trouble dealing with the clamp:
I agree that it's probably too early to block in this case. It makes sense the pros mostly block, because their professional opponents wait to play the descent until it's sente.
I think with the move mentioned above B will have trouble dealing with the clamp:
I agree that it's probably too early to block in this case. It makes sense the pros mostly block, because their professional opponents wait to play the descent until it's sente.
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Harleqin
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Re: Two questions from a game
After White has jumped in on the lower side, Black does not have great territorial prospects there, so answering becomes rather small.
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.