Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@black:
Kirby wrote:...

I think Joaz's idea of knight's move is good for extending our influence. But I fear that they will protect in sente (since we have to answer on the top), and then counter attack. For example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X X X 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I've been trying to find a reliable continuation here, but I have come to the conclusion that the aji is terrible. Therefore, I agree with Kirby when he says:

Kirby wrote:My vote is to play the atari immediately to achieve this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X X X 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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emeraldemon
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by emeraldemon »

@white
I thought about something that direction, but i'm worried black will just hane:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X X B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After the hane i think we have to protect our cutting stones, then i'm not sure if the position is good for us.
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skydyr
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by skydyr »

emeraldemon wrote:@white
I thought about something that direction, but i'm worried black will just hane:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X X B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After the hane i think we have to protect our cutting stones, then i'm not sure if the position is good for us.


Perhaps you're right. It doesn't look like we can crosscut successfully there. I'm fine with just extending then.
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emeraldemon
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by emeraldemon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O W . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@black:
Kirby wrote:...
My vote is to play the atari immediately to achieve this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X X X 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This seems best to me. @TegaiS: I think that you have referred to something like this in the recent past.
Shall we tell them that we play :b1: and that :b3: is a trigger if they play :w2:?

And...
shall we give them two addtional triggers like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X X X 3 . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O O 4 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X X X 3 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O O 5 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
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Kirby
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Kirby »

@black
Sounds good.
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TegaiS
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by TegaiS »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X X X 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Kirby
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Kirby »

FYI, I will be heading to Korea this weekend, and won't have the same Internet access as usual. I'll return on February 10th, the same day that I turn two to the fifth years old. I entrust my voting during this two and a half week period to my beloved teammates, Joaz and TegaiS.

I expect a 20 point lead by the time I get back.
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Uberdude »

@obs (and possibly players too as I discuss a long-gone situation over a dozen moves ago).

I only just discovered this game, and wondered how white got into such an ugly shape (black is leading considerably from this fight). White's 3-3 in this corner seems fair enough and fighting spirit (even though he doesn't have the ladder so has to play bad shape kosumi push into rather than cut across waist of knight's move next), but the g16 cut turned out very badly due to black's strong move at h17. If k16 was one line closer then that cut would have been ok as h17 wouldn't work. As it was I think white had to make the other cut. emeraldemon even suggested the good continuation below:

emeraldemon wrote:@white
I'm curious: could we start by attacking the top stones and wait to see the best play on the left?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Something like this?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 2 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . a . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



But no one addressed this and it seems they went with andreyl's suggestion of the other cut, but he hadn't envisaged black's strong continuations after h17. I think :w26: here is the key move, after the extension of 24 white makes miai of surrounding and attacking one of black's cut groups. White should not feel obliged to answer on the left side: if black were to play a move like a white simply thumbs his nose and plays b for a trade (and the left side is still far from black territory). If black answers white 6 on the top white will get stronger and then and continue on the left.

skydyr posted this sequence which I think shows faulty strategy of answering your opponent's move too much and not following up on the miai threat of surrounding one of the cut groups:

skydyr wrote:@white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W 7 9 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . a 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I thought white's stones would all be working decently after this. None of black's groups are alive and white's stones are all working.


Note how the marked white stone and 6 have created a narrow gap through which black is forced to run, damaging white on both sides (need to defend cut at a now). I suppose one could say white aims to play b here and force black out, but I feel white is too busy like that and should play more solidly. Here's another way to think of it: at move 25 below it is black's move, but imagine he passed then white's would love to play as shown to surround and possibly kill black. So white has a very good move that black needs to avoid.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Powerful threat black must avoid
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But now let's consider a similar situation after skydyr's sequence. It is now black to move after 30, but what is white's threat if black were to pass? White ''a'' is possibly it, making a loose surround of the black group. But it has a lot more eyespace on the left side. So I think of this sequence as black in sente reducing the severity of white's threat. Giving your opponent gain in sente is to be avoided. It's fine for him to make gain in gote because then you get something too, but gain in sente means he got something for nothing. Now it's not quite so simple here because white's 28-30 stones aren't nothing and weaken black's stones in the lower left, though they could also be weak themselves in the fight if black doesn't pass as in this thought experiment. But this idea of not giving your opponent something (less severe attack on left group) in sente is why I want to play 26 as emeraldemon's move of surrounding the top group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W 7 9 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 8 . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Last edited by Uberdude on Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Uberdude
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Uberdude »

Kirby wrote:I'll return on February 10th, the same day that I turn two to the fifth years old.
So you will be 11 days old in 19 days? Can I borrow your time machine?
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Bill Spight
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:FYI, I will be heading to Korea this weekend, and won't have the same Internet access as usual. I'll return on February 10th, the same day that I turn two to the fifth years old.


Have a great trip, and don't play too much baduk. :D
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Schachus
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Schachus »

Uberdude wrote:
Kirby wrote:I'll return on February 10th, the same day that I turn two to the fifth years old.
So you will be 11 days old in 19 days? Can I borrow your time machine?


Either I dont get your point, or you got the maths wrong. 2^(1/5)!= 2^(-5)= 1/32
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Uberdude
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Uberdude »

Woops, how embarrassing!
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Uberdude wrote:Woops, how embarrassing!


But you probably are correct that white should have made the other cut.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Kirby wrote:FYI, I will be heading to Korea...


Enjoy your trip.
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