Fuseki help ?

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:20 pm

Augh, is there an easy to understand continuation for this fuseki ? It seems white can turn the top left into some kind of horrible tricky explosion any way I reckon it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This looks deceptively innocent $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Four at "a" also.

Play 3 at 4 ? Diagonal games get crazy though ... 3 at b ?

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:02 am

San-Ren-Sei with double Hoshi or Low-Chinese with one Komoku? Maybe Orthodox, so that White might split and you can gain the initiative?

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:08 am

The opening is quite free. For kyu levels, the opening is VERY free.
Even :b1:

at A1 is not necessarily game over for Black, at kyu levels:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tactical mistakes -- reading errors, ladders, cross cuts, life-and-death,
contact fights, end-game errors, etc. -- can easily cost 15-20 points
and affect a kyu-level game much more than the opening moves.

One can have a pro-level opening for the first 20 moves,
but if one cannot read or fight well, one can still be stuck at kyu levels.

On the other hand, even with a "lousy" opening,
if one can read and fight well, one can make it to low dan levels.
(Just look at certain Go programs that are now at 2k-2d range.

)

Others have already mentioned this many times before,
but at kyu levels, the efforts can be spent better elsewhere.
(But few people listen.

)

CarlJung · Post by **CarlJung** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:38 am

Loons wrote:Augh, is there an easy to understand continuation for this fuseki ? It seems white can turn the top left into some kind of horrible tricky explosion any way I reckon it.

It's very much playable for both. Perhaps you could share some of these horrible tricky explosions and we can discuss it's merits and where it went downhill?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:41 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This looks deceptively innocent $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Go Seigen recommends :b5:

. White does not have a severe pincer.

:b3:

at 4 has good winning statistics. It aims at an approach to the top left corner, of course.

entropi · Post by **entropi** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:02 am

Opening may matter depending on the styles of both players. If one of the kyu players is a berserker fighter, unreasonable invador, "trying to kill"er than the whole opening theory becomes void during the course of a kyu game. Just compare typical KGS and wbadsuk games.

Studying opening at kyu levels feels like reading James Joyce while learning basic English. It may be helpful, but it is not the most efficient way to improve.
That's only the opinion of an eternal kyu player though

Jonas · Post by **Jonas** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:38 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c You can what you like $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . c b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The board is so open, you shouldn't stick to a strict plan but enjoy the many possibilities you have!
- If you like moyo-games and to let your opponent make the first move, you can play sanrensei (5 at'a')

- You can choose the more active way and approach the open side of his 3-4 stone at 'b' or 'c'

- If you dont like o get pincered but still want to do something active you can choose the 2-space- approach (see Bills post) at 'e'

- if you like the bottom you can play a kakari at 'f'

- ...

There are so many possibilities that all the alphabetical letters wouldnt be enough

Just play the way you like, most of the amateur games (until 4-5 dan or something) aren't decided in the opening. IT doesnt really matter if you are a little bit behind after the first 20 moves or not. We amateurs do so many mistakes in the middle and endgame which could turn the game every time.

entropi · Post by **entropi** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:15 am

Helel wrote:... we're here to learn the game as a whole, not win some games against players as clueless as ourself.

If that's the intention, I completely agree. I only say that it is not the best way to improve but it can certainly be interesting to learn. It might for example help appreciating pro games, or you might just want to learn from curiosity, which is perfectly ok. But I would prefer to freely experiment rather than sticking to those standard openings in my games.

flOvermind · Post by **flOvermind** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:31 am

entropi wrote:I only say that it is not the best way to improve but it can certainly be interesting to learn. It might for example help appreciating pro games, or you might just want to learn from curiosity, which is perfectly ok.

I disagree.

It might not be the best way to improve *in the short term*. But in the long term it's crucial to know about fundamentals, and that includes fuseki. So if your goal is to reach 1 dan and be done with it, feel free to ignore fuseki, it's not necessary at all. But if your goal is long term improvement beyond that, studying fuseki might be a good idea. Sure, it might be that you'll need a bit longer to reach 1 dan that way, but that will pay off later when you don't have to unlearn that much to improve further.

entropi wrote:But I would prefer to freely experiment rather than sticking to those standard openings in my games.

Studying fuseki and sticking to standard openings are two completely different things. You won't really learn good fuseki by blindly copying pro moves, you have to understand the principles behind them. It's similar to joseki study vs. learning joseki by heart, but with the difference that the principles behind fuseki moves are a lot easier to understand, even at kyu levels.

Hushfield · Post by **Hushfield** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:44 am

I agree with some of the posts in this thread that at kyu level the most efficient way to become stronger is to focus on reading, and fighting strength. I like flOvermind's concern about a solid base to your future development, but personally, I think it's better reading ability and knowledge of fighting techniques one needs to understand the opening. Being able to read why certain moves are played and dissecting a joseki are things that require some serious reading ability. So I think it doesn't hurt to focus on reading ability almost exclusively first, but if one wants to become a truly strong player, of course one needs to study the opening more deeply as well.

Pointing all of this out in a thread about how to continue in a certain opening seems somewhat beside the point, though.

Loons, there are 4 stones on the board. No need to panic yet. Kageyama also stresses the point Jonas made:

Kageyama Toshiro - Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go wrote:Never mind what others say; the best opening is the one you yourself find easiest to handle. [...] Use your imagination.

So if you feel troubled about approaching the upper left, stay away from it and play somewhere else.

entropi · Post by **entropi** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:53 am

flOvermind wrote:
entropi wrote:I only say that it is not the best way to improve but it can certainly be interesting to learn. It might for example help appreciating pro games, or you might just want to learn from curiosity, which is perfectly ok.

I disagree.

It might not be the best way to improve *in the short term*. But in the long term it's crucial to know about fundamentals, and that includes fuseki. So if your goal is to reach 1 dan and be done with it, feel free to ignore fuseki, it's not necessary at all. But if your goal is long term improvement beyond that, studying fuseki might be a good idea. Sure, it might be that you'll need a bit longer to reach 1 dan that way, but that will pay off later when you don't have to unlearn that much to improve further.

I don't think studying fuseki will ever be more important than improving my reading, neither in short term nor in long term. At one point, probably way beyond shodan, it may become indeed useful or even necessary. But it will never be more important than fighting ability which is based on reading and pattern recognition.

You are free to disagree again of course

flOvermind wrote:
entropi wrote:But I would prefer to freely experiment rather than sticking to those standard openings in my games.

Studying fuseki and sticking to standard openings are two completely different things.

I would never suggest otherwise. If it was understood that way, sorry for being not clear enough.

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:23 am

If you believe that studying or improving on the opening does not benefit your play, you should not play on such a big board---you are not using it anyway.

I actually mean that. ;-)

Play on smaller boards is much too often neglected or even looked down upon.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:37 am

entropi wrote:I don't think studying fuseki will ever be more important than improving my reading, neither in short term nor in long term.

I'm not sure I understand ... doesn't fuseki study improve reading, just like almost any studying in Go?

Fundamentals (shape, proverbs, etc): helps you with reading.
Life+Death: helps you with reading.
Tesuji Study: hey, this could be useful for my reading!
Joseki Study: helps you with reading.
Fuseki Study: yup, it helps you with reading, too.
Pro Game Study: I'm pretty sure you can use these to help your reading, too.

I guess I'm of the opinion that every aspect of the game involves reading. Separating concepts into categories like the above seems counter-intuitive to me.

Back to the actual topic:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c It's only 4 stones $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems to me, Loons, that your issue isn't the fuseki itself, but the choices for joseki in the upper left. We seem to be about the same strength. Here are my suggestions:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Bill's option $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Try this approach out, if you don't want to start a fight immediately. The pincer is a little less scary and you have room to move. Another option:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Hard for White to make this complicated $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . 8 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . 7 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is always possible. There's one more I think you should consider and maybe study a little:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c It's only 4 stones $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This doesn't seem too bad to me either.

I'm no stronger than you are, of course, so take all this with a grain of salt.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:40 am

Well, I don't want to discourage people from studying fuseki. But here are my contentions:

- Studying particular fuseki such as this one can certainly be useful.

- Improving at reading and general opening principles is more important.

- In any case, getting super nervous about how to deal with move 4 (any move 4) is counterproductive. Knowing general opening principles is enough to give you a perfectly good game. If you and your opponent are both playing reasonably, nothing should make you say "Oh no, if I don't find the perfect response to this move, I'm sunk." The lack of confidence associated with this is more than enough negative baggage to outweigh the positives of studying fuseki; if you've convinced yourself you're already in a hole at move 5, it's going to put you in a bad attitude for the rest of the game.

Exactly the same issues come up in chess - even more so, since the opening is more predictable. People obsess over memorizing grandmaster-level opening moves when it would be more productive to improve their actual play.

entropi · Post by **entropi** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:08 am

Marcus wrote:
entropi wrote:I don't think studying fuseki will ever be more important than improving my reading, neither in short term nor in long term.

I'm not sure I understand ... doesn't fuseki study improve reading, just like almost any studying in Go?

Ok ok ok! It seems whatever I write, somebody has to counter-argue

Yes, it does, it improves reading. Therefore studying fuseki is exactly as important as tsumego or joseki or whatever you like. Or maybe not... This is not a useful discussion anyway, and went too much out of the scope of the original post. So I stop.

Life In 19x19

Fuseki help ?

Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?

Re: Fuseki help ?