AlphaGo vs Lee Sedol, who will win?

Lucian · **#121**

Does any one ( Mace

? ) care to share the reactions/opinions of Chinese professionals after the match, and how they felt the quality of the play?

I was surprised by the amount of time left on Lee Sedol clock, and how fast he played the second half of the game. It's like he knew he was having no more chance in this particular game (considering the opponent's level).

ahamay · **#122**

belikewater wrote:

In a news article I saw Lee quoted as saying that AlphaGo played a move "I thought was almost impossible to play". Does anyone know which move he was referring to?

My guess is the attach in the first corner. Usually this order is bad because blacks side will become too comfortable. But here it was playable because after the two pushes, the side was a little overconcentrated and the center fight very nice for white.

Uberdude · **#123**

belikewater wrote:

In a news article I saw Lee quoted as saying that AlphaGo played a move "I thought was almost impossible to play". Does anyone know which move he was referring to?

My guess is it was r10, the invasion on the right side. That impressed Sweetrip 9d on KGS (Andy Liu I think) who said something like no pro would dare to play such a move, though Zhou Ruiyang 9p apparently suggested it.

Bill Spight · **#124**

Uberdude wrote:

I wasn't suggesting to never resign (indeed I often give up and resign rather early in my games). If he played out and lost this game by 5 points, and the next by 3, then resigning the 3rd when he is losing by 5 would be more warranted as AlphaGo would have demonstrated it can successfully finish a game (it did weird things at the end of Fan Hui game 1). Zen19X 7d lost a game on KGS by 0.5 because it filled in its own territory too many times (presumably due to some bug in the scoring or komi logic) and whilst I expect DeepMind have tested this thoroughly I still think it could be worth verifying. Winning in such a way would certainly be cheap, but by treating the AI with the respect he would a human he could be hiding its crucial weakness.

Indeed. Good point.

Quote:

Also didn't Sakata often play out big losses, I recall someone posting anecdotes here about how he wanted to know how many points his mistakes were worth.

Sakata was not known for resigning. Once he lost a game by 5.5 or 6.5 points and later commented that he had wanted to see how bad he would lose after making six mistakes in a row.

Bill Spight · **#125**

belikewater wrote:

In a news article I saw Lee quoted as saying that AlphaGo played a move "I thought was almost impossible to play". Does anyone know which move he was referring to?

My guess is ignoring the approach to the bottom left corner and making the thick play in the top left.

belikewater · **#126**

Uberdude wrote:

belikewater wrote:

In a news article I saw Lee quoted as saying that AlphaGo played a move "I thought was almost impossible to play". Does anyone know which move he was referring to?

My guess is it was r10, the invasion on the right side. That impressed Sweetrip 9d on KGS (Andy Liu I think) who said something like no pro would dare to play such a move, though Zhou Ruiyang 9p apparently suggested it.

R10 was my first thought from the suprise it garnered, but I wasn't sure if that was the move he was referring to.

belikewater · **#127**

Although I was disappointed that Lee lost, I have to say I am very excited for the second game. I hope he avoids overplays and plays how he would against a human player of his caliber. I am still hoping for Lee to win the rest of the games, even if I am excited to see what moves AlphaGo plays.

Kirby · **#128**

belikewater wrote:

Although I was disappointed that Lee lost, I have to say I am very excited for the second game.

I am disappointed, too. Actually, I would say I am very disappointed, and have been pretty depressed today.

In my last "prediction" of this thread, I noted that I was leaning toward the possibility of AlphaGo winning:

Kirby wrote:

I keep going back and forth - maybe I am swayed too much by the media. Currently, I am leaning toward saying AlphaGo will win.

Despite this, in my heart, I didn't want AlphaGo to win. I didn't think I cared - computers are already better than me. But somehow, it's made me more aware of the limitations that humans have.

Here's a man who has devoted his entire life to pursue excellence in his field. He had enough devotion and put enough effort into his study to become one of the best players in the world... Regardless of whether it's Go, mathematics, art, or something else... To be one of the best in the world at something requires a level of devotion that passes beyond talent.

But alas, those years of study, hard work, perhaps sacrificing other fun things in life... were overcome in less than 2 years by a team of (albethey skilled) programmers.

On one hand, my mind can cheer for the progress that technology has made to solve problems more easily and more efficiently.

But on the other hand, it makes me sad. I don't know how to express why better than this.

Nonetheless, today is a depressing day for me. :-(

skydyr · **#129**

Kirby wrote:

belikewater wrote:

Although I was disappointed that Lee lost, I have to say I am very excited for the second game.

I am disappointed, too. Actually, I would say I am very disappointed, and have been pretty depressed today.

In my last "prediction" of this thread, I noted that I was leaning toward the possibility of AlphaGo winning:

Kirby wrote:

I keep going back and forth - maybe I am swayed too much by the media. Currently, I am leaning toward saying AlphaGo will win.

Despite this, in my heart, I didn't want AlphaGo to win. I didn't think I cared - computers are already better than me. But somehow, it's made me more aware of the limitations that humans have.

Here's a man who has devoted his entire life to pursue excellence in his field. He had enough devotion and put enough effort into his study to become one of the best players in the world... Regardless of whether it's Go, mathematics, art, or something else... To be one of the best in the world at something requires a level of devotion that passes beyond talent.

But alas, those years of study, hard work, perhaps sacrificing other fun things in life... were overcome in less than 2 years by a team of (albethey skilled) programmers.

On one hand, my mind can cheer for the progress that technology has made to solve problems more easily and more efficiently.

But on the other hand, it makes me sad. I don't know how to express why better than this.

Nonetheless, today is a depressing day for me. :-(

If it makes you feel any better, I don't think the programmers really understand why it picks one move over another themselves. It's quite different from a set of straightforward heuristics.

illluck · **#130**

Kirby wrote:

belikewater wrote:

Although I was disappointed that Lee lost, I have to say I am very excited for the second game.

I am disappointed, too. Actually, I would say I am very disappointed, and have been pretty depressed today.

In my last "prediction" of this thread, I noted that I was leaning toward the possibility of AlphaGo winning:

Kirby wrote:

I keep going back and forth - maybe I am swayed too much by the media. Currently, I am leaning toward saying AlphaGo will win.

Despite this, in my heart, I didn't want AlphaGo to win. I didn't think I cared - computers are already better than me. But somehow, it's made me more aware of the limitations that humans have.

Here's a man who has devoted his entire life to pursue excellence in his field. He had enough devotion and put enough effort into his study to become one of the best players in the world... Regardless of whether it's Go, mathematics, art, or something else... To be one of the best in the world at something requires a level of devotion that passes beyond talent.

But alas, those years of study, hard work, perhaps sacrificing other fun things in life... were overcome in less than 2 years by a team of (albethey skilled) programmers.

On one hand, my mind can cheer for the progress that technology has made to solve problems more easily and more efficiently.

But on the other hand, it makes me sad. I don't know how to express why better than this.

Nonetheless, today is a depressing day for me. :-(

Not sure if it helps, but there are two things that made me feel better:

1) Even if AlphaGo is in fact stronger, it is built from the knowledge of a dedicated field with decades of history and millions of man-hours (and the culmination of millennia of human's efforts in science) - it's amazing that a single player has acquired sufficient skill to require this level of dedication/effort to challenge.

2) A part of AlphaGo's strength comes from the game records of strong amateurs and professionals - in a way a bit of all the players resides within it.

pookpooi · **#131**

illluck wrote:

Even if AlphaGo is in fact stronger, it is built from the knowledge of a dedicated field with decades of history and millions of man-hours (and the culmination of millennia of human's efforts in science) - it's amazing that a single player has acquired sufficient skill to require this level of dedication/effort to challenge.

Completely agree, computer go has been around since 1960 not just born last year and it takes lifetime of many world-class computer scientists to get to this point.

And to Macelee of Go4Go, could you enter AlphaGo to your database? Google identify it as 5p and you could insert R instead of M/F in gender data. Because there will be more R gender in the future for sure.

emeraldemon · **#132**

I think it is in the database:

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/byplayer/1718

It's also in the goratings.org data, although not in the ranked list:

http://www.goratings.org/players/1718.html

It's currently rated at 3407 elo, which would put it #31 on the list.

pookpooi · **#133**

emeraldemon wrote:

I think it is in the database:

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/byplayer/1718

It's also in the goratings.org data, although not in the ranked list:

http://www.goratings.org/players/1718.html

It's currently rated at 3407 elo, which would put it #31 on the list.

Wow that was quick! By the way I agree that Robot should not rank in the same as human category. But should its existence affect Hunan's rating is to be debate.

wineandgolover · **#134**

I'm guessing that elo rating might be just a tad bit low.

pookpooi · **#135**

wineandgolover wrote:

I'm guessing that elo rating might be just a tad bit low.

It'll go low if only a few games was played in record, but today's match will make it higher

Daren Snow · **#136**

Kirby wrote:

belikewater wrote:

Although I was disappointed that Lee lost, I have to say I am very excited for the second game.

I am disappointed, too. Actually, I would say I am very disappointed, and have been pretty depressed today.

In my last "prediction" of this thread, I noted that I was leaning toward the possibility of AlphaGo winning:

Kirby wrote:

I keep going back and forth - maybe I am swayed too much by the media. Currently, I am leaning toward saying AlphaGo will win.

Despite this, in my heart, I didn't want AlphaGo to win. I didn't think I cared - computers are already better than me. But somehow, it's made me more aware of the limitations that humans have.

Here's a man who has devoted his entire life to pursue excellence in his field. He had enough devotion and put enough effort into his study to become one of the best players in the world... Regardless of whether it's Go, mathematics, art, or something else... To be one of the best in the world at something requires a level of devotion that passes beyond talent.

But alas, those years of study, hard work, perhaps sacrificing other fun things in life... were overcome in less than 2 years by a team of (albethey skilled) programmers.

On one hand, my mind can cheer for the progress that technology has made to solve problems more easily and more efficiently.

But on the other hand, it makes me sad. I don't know how to express why better than this.

Nonetheless, today is a depressing day for me. :-(

Could be why you tried to Ban I_AM_A_SPAMMER_PLS_IGNORE ?

Kirby · **#137**

I didn't ban you, dude. I have never banned anyone. At least get your facts straight :roll:

Daren Snow · **#138**

Kirby wrote:

I didn't ban you, dude. I have never banned anyone. At least get your facts straight :roll:

Get your facts straight is on the other foot Me/you/him/I_AM_A_SPAMMER_PLS_IGNORE ????

Just as your tried to Ban ? is much the same as influenced the powers that be

Kirby · **#139**

Daren Snow wrote:

Kirby wrote:

I didn't ban you, dude. I have never banned anyone. At least get your facts straight :roll:

Get your facts straight is on the other foot Me/you/him/I_AM_A_SPAMMER_PLS_IGNORE ????

Just as your tried to Ban ? is much the same as influenced the powers that be

I am saying that I didn't ban anyone. You seem to assume that I did. I explained why the ban happened, but that's all. Anyway, it's pretty immature to discuss these matters publicly - on a AlphaGo vs Lee Sedol thread, no less.

Like I said earlier, if you have concerns, send me a PM.

Bonobo · **#140**

Live Streams for Game #4
• Official DeepMind stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCALyQRN3hw
• AGA stream: https://www.youtube.com/user/USGOWeb/live
• Ke Jie: http://sports.letv.com/match/122343003.html
• Gu Li: http://tech.qq.com/alphaGo.htm
• WeiqiTV: http://www.zhangyu.tv/777071
• On Twitter – AskAKorean: http://twitter.com/AskAKorean

(thanks to the AlphaGo Chat (AI/Machine Learning) for info on additional streams https://alphagochat.slack.com/)

AlphaGo vs Lee Sedol, who will win?

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