This is one of the typical games I play against non-MonteCarlo engines such as GNU Go, Aya, or the webbased Cosumi. If I can't get them to fight somehow, I'll lose by 20 points or more. Mostly it's like this:
- Me building up a huge lead.
- Then I fall behind because of the huge influence the engine has
- And then I frantically try to reduce or invade, which can have two outcomes:
1. I fail the invasion and I die.
2. I succeed to reduce, but get reduced myself, and lose anyway.
This is becoming frustrating as I don't seem to be able to prevent a non-MC-engine getting either huge influence, or a huge moyo. As soon as I get a non-MC engine to fight, I start beating it soundly, which makes me look several stones stronger; if they play solidly however, I seem to be several stones weaker. I've commented what I was thinking during the game.
Feel free to comment, and thanks in advance.
A typical game of mine against GNU Go
-
Babelardus
- Lives with ko
- Posts: 161
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 4:09 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 25 times
A typical game of mine against GNU Go
- Attachments
-
- me_gnugo.sgf
- (8.15 KiB) Downloaded 634 times
Last edited by Babelardus on Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
Hi Babelardus,
OK, you included the SGF now.
In one of your variations of
-- please see screenshot below --
you played a very strange move -- D18 connect --
to improve, you must fix this kind of moves ( by yourself )
and one reason is the kind of moves like D18 connect -- you must fix this by yourself.
OK, you included the SGF now.
In one of your variations of
-- please see screenshot below --you played a very strange move -- D18 connect --
to improve, you must fix this kind of moves ( by yourself )
There are (probably) multiple reasons for the above 'typical' results in your games,Babelardus wrote:1. I fail the invasion and I die.
2. I succeed to reduce, but get reduced myself, and lose anyway.
and one reason is the kind of moves like D18 connect -- you must fix this by yourself.
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
Hi Babelardus,
Earlier, in the same variation, you played an empty triangle move for W -- E16 connect --
please see screenshot:This is also not right.
The correct local move for W is block at D17.
You (also) need to develop a sense or feeling for good shapes, and bad shapes ( like your E16 connect for W ).
Earlier, in the same
variation, you played an empty triangle move for W -- E16 connect --please see screenshot:
The correct local move for W is block at D17.
You (also) need to develop a sense or feeling for good shapes, and bad shapes ( like your E16 connect for W ).
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
Hi Babelardus,
About , this is a very common situation -- basic shape --
Please see game review thread, post 4.
About
, this is a very common situation -- basic shape --Please see game review thread, post 4.
-
Babelardus
- Lives with ko
- Posts: 161
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 4:09 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 25 times
Re: A typical game of mine against GNU Go
First, I obviously added the variations and comments afterward; I didn't read out 4-5 variations 10-15 moves deep. I can't yet do that. The variations are what I *think* what would have happened.
Thanks for pointing out the connection at D18. The connection is probably not necessary. The reason I play those moves regularly is because I can't read out (= get confused and lose the 'mental view' of the board) the entire variation I'm thinking about. Then I don't know if leaving the connection hanging is safe or not.
One of those moments is move 121. I see several big(ger) points on the board, but dare not play them as I'm afraid that white will, at some point, revive the stone at K11, after which my entire reduction would (possibly) be killed. At move 90, I have some variations that point out that white J11 can't be used to disconnect the reducing stones, but after white 116 at N11 I became unsure, in reading out possible variations, so I felt I needed to kill white K11 now.
It did cost me a move, and such moves could obviously be used to strengthen an invasion or reduction.
What do you mean with "you must fix this by yourself" ?
Thanks for pointing out the connection at D18. The connection is probably not necessary. The reason I play those moves regularly is because I can't read out (= get confused and lose the 'mental view' of the board) the entire variation I'm thinking about. Then I don't know if leaving the connection hanging is safe or not.
One of those moments is move 121. I see several big(ger) points on the board, but dare not play them as I'm afraid that white will, at some point, revive the stone at K11, after which my entire reduction would (possibly) be killed. At move 90, I have some variations that point out that white J11 can't be used to disconnect the reducing stones, but after white 116 at N11 I became unsure, in reading out possible variations, so I felt I needed to kill white K11 now.
It did cost me a move, and such moves could obviously be used to strengthen an invasion or reduction.
What do you mean with "you must fix this by yourself" ?
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
Hi Babelardus,
As we see in the above 3 examples, basic shapes are a recurring problem.
Here's another one:
This is wrong feeling, and bad shape for Black.
( Diagram rotated for space ): The result is good shape for W, and bad shape for B: Proverb: "Hane at the head of (2) enemy stones." -- you make bad shape for B, and good shape for W.
Please see also Hane Head of 2 stones.
As we see in the above 3 examples, basic shapes are a recurring problem.
Here's another one:
This is wrong feeling, and bad shape for Black.( Diagram rotated for space ): The result is good shape for W, and bad shape for B: Proverb: "Hane at the head of (2) enemy stones." -- you make bad shape for B, and good shape for W.
Please see also Hane Head of 2 stones.
-
Babelardus
- Lives with ko
- Posts: 161
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 4:09 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 25 times
Re:
Hi, EdLee,EdLee wrote:Hi Babelardus,
Earlier, in the same
please see screenshot:This is also not right.
The correct local move for W is block at D17.
You (also) need to develop a sense or feeling for good shapes, and bad shapes ( like your E16 connect for W ).
Thanks for the help. I know the shape you point out, but I don't understand why it works.
After white D17, doesn't B-E16, W-E15, B-D15, W-C15, B-D14 sequence disconnect those stones?
Why is this, with the two or three space extension as a follow-up, a bad shape? What would be the correct answer in that situation?EdLee wrote:Hi Babelardus,
As we see in the above 3 examples, basic shapes are a recurring problem.
Here's another one:
( Diagram rotated for space ):
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
Hi Babelardus,Babelardus wrote:I didn't read out 4-5 variations 10-15 moves deep. I can't yet do that.
...
Thanks for pointing out the connection at D18. The connection is probably not necessary. The reason I play those moves regularly is...
...
What do you mean with "you must fix this by yourself" ?
About your D18 connect in your
variation:This does not require 15 move reading.
It requires 3 moves, perhaps: It means rather than waiting for other people to fix this kind of moves for you, to point them out for you,
it's much better if you learn to see this kind of mistakes, and the better moves, by yourself.
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
Hi Babelardus, We look at some more basic shapes here.Babelardus wrote:After white D17, doesn't B-E16, W-E15, B-D15, W-C15, B-D14 sequence disconnect those stones?
Your exchange of (
atari - 
extend ) is a kind of 'common mistake' --you must ask yourself: why atari ? Why do you send Black out so nicely for him ?
Instead, W simply descends: Now, you see W has a problem with the (a) cut.
Suppose B also descends; W cuts with
-- now the 3 
stones are in trouble, with only 2 liberties left:
B can try to resist a bit; B must connect with 
; after 
, B has only 3 liberties left --2 liberties + 1 shared liberty with W;
W has 4 outside liberties and 1 shared liberty:
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
If B connects the (a) cut, here's one continuation:
You can play around with the variations here and see what you discover.
One basic shape lesson here: notice the atari W wants is this ( - ) exchange,
where W takes the outside and forces B to take the inside.
Compare this with your exchange of ( - ) in post 12.
One basic shape lesson here: notice the atari W wants is this (
- ) exchange,where W takes the outside and forces B to take the inside.
Compare this with your exchange of (
- ) in post 12.-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
drops, B has two problems -- (a) and (b) --
),-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
stones: