Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?

Higher level discussions, analysis of professional games, etc., go here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Koosh
Lives with ko
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:26 pm
Rank: AGA 2 dan
GD Posts: 54
Location: Raleigh, NC
Has thanked: 94 times
Been thanked: 53 times
Contact:
Contact Koosh

Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?

Post by Koosh »

Still awash with US Go Congress fever :batman:

I have been watching basic shape videos on youtube and the teacher explained the shape in the bottom right corner of the board in detail.
Video (25% opacity English subtitles available for lecture 1 and 2): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAzNqhsTtH0

When replaying the above-mentioned game from Shusaku's collection - Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi [1861] - I came across the shape discussed in the youtube lecture in the bottom right corner of the board.

In the actual game, W - Shuusaku - played a bamboo joint, allowing white to hane at 15-18 and live comfortably.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . . X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . X O . O . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , X X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X X . , . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O O O O O O X . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 2 . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
But I wonder what would have happened if W had played on the first line to try to kill the black group instead? Is there a way that B can live in the bottom right after W plays the move shown below?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . . X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . X O . O . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , X X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X X . , . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O O O O O O X . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black to play.
I admittedly don't have an answer to this problem because the commentary doesn't cover it, but it seems to provide a continuation of the material in the youtube lecture. Unless... B is dead... and I am now stronger than Shusaku was. :roll:

My thoughts are below to start off with:
According to the youtube lecture, normally B attaches next to the white stone to start a ko, giving this sequence.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . . X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . X O . O . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , X X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X X . , . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O O O O O O X . . . X O O X X X 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 2 3 . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 4 5 . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I have a hard time judging whether or not this ko is good for W or B, but what if W plays this way instead?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . . X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . X O . O . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , X X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X X . , . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . O O O O O O X . . . X O O X X X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 6 3 5 9 . X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O 1 . 7 . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Well...this could also be ko...but B has 2 points here and W could make the game play - a bamboo joint - now, threatening a flower ko.
Ko is the best solution.
With Ko, I can keep eating and drinking until I am full.

Visit >>>Koosh's Study Journal<<<
Top
Tryss
Lives in gote
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 1:07 pm
Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?

Post by Tryss »

Complicated?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . . X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . X O . O . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , X X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 O O M . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X X . , . . 3 2 X O O O . |
$$ | . O O O O O O X . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Top
User avatar
Koosh
Lives with ko
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:26 pm
Rank: AGA 2 dan
GD Posts: 54
Location: Raleigh, NC
Has thanked: 94 times
Been thanked: 53 times
Contact:
Contact Koosh

Re: Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?

Post by Koosh »

@Tryss: I think white can play like this following your variation...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . . X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . X O . O . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , X X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 X X O O 2 . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X X . 8 7 1 O X X O O O . |
$$ | . O O O O O O X . 9 6 X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
--edit 7:39pm 8/18--
The above doesn't work :tmbdown:
B8 at B9 and the whole thing is muddled. Thanks Uberdude.
Last edited by Koosh on Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ko is the best solution.
With Ko, I can keep eating and drinking until I am full.

Visit >>>Koosh's Study Journal<<<
Top
Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
Rank: UK 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Location: Cambridge, UK
Has thanked: 436 times
Been thanked: 3718 times

Re: Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?

Post by Uberdude »

Koosh, 8 at 9 in the last diagram? Unless you give a dozen or two variation diagrams to show white can handle the cut I'll assume Shusaku was right that he needed to defend. Black could also try to save those 2 stones and then semeai with the white group on the right for example.
Top
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?

Post by Kirby »

Nice youtube video.
be immersed
Top
User avatar
Koosh
Lives with ko
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:26 pm
Rank: AGA 2 dan
GD Posts: 54
Location: Raleigh, NC
Has thanked: 94 times
Been thanked: 53 times
Contact:
Contact Koosh

Re: Shusaku vs. Hayashi Yubi (1861) - death in the corner?

Post by Koosh »

Thanks Uberdude. Sloppy reading on my part! I guess the corner shape had nothing to do with Shusaku's decision there.

@Kirby: I know the gentleman who is translating those videos; he's doing an awesome job! I hope he continues.
Ko is the best solution.
With Ko, I can keep eating and drinking until I am full.

Visit >>>Koosh's Study Journal<<<
Top
Post Reply

Return to “Professionals”