What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

dfan · **#161**

Just looking at the first 50 moves or so (take all opinions with a grain of salt, given that I am only a few stones stronger):

The first move I have any real quibble with is :w22:

(though I probably would have played :w20:

one line lower because as played it can easily be dug under from the right). My immediate instinct is that White has to hane; the only question is which direction. After ten seconds I would probably flip a coin.

K3 isn't even necessarily more of an attacking move than H3, since you're likely to sacrifice it to make a nice solid position if he crosscuts.

Don't be worried about the idea of a crosscut! If there is some concrete variation to be worried about, okay, but you can't just be worried in the abstract about all local fighting.

:w34:

looks wrong. A stronger player could tell us what move would be better (I would probably either play E17 or just tenuki, and ladder or squeeze if he cut), but the played move makes the stone at G17 look stupid.

One move later: if :w34:

had been at E17, you could play :w36:

at B14 with very few worries, so that's one thing.

:w38:

seems pretty optimistic given that Black has support at C7. I think R18 is the biggest point on the board, though stronger players may disagree. I would probably tenuki with :w48:

rather than save two stones.

:w50:

: don't fear crosscuts in the abstract! You are locally strong, fighting will be fun.

:w52:

: unless he threatens to connect (I haven't read it out, but I don't think he is), I think it is more important to cover him with Q10, denying him liberties and keeping him confined to the side. Turning at Q10 is big for him.

skydyr · **#162**

Here are some comments on the game:

In general, there are a couple deficiencies I can think of:

First, white tended to build thickness without a plan for how to use it, but just because it was something to do, and to play overly defensive moves to keep everything connected without considering what might have an effect on black.

Second, when you are white and black goes straight for territory and quite tightly, as he does in this game, it's fine to compete on territory instead of trying to go for the outside. Komi should be fine to keep you in the game if not win it.

Fedya · **#163**

Comments to skydyr:

:w2:

I think I avoided the possibility of a diagonal fuseki mostly because I really feel like I don't know what I'm groping blindly in it. I've said something to the effect regarding opponents playing moves in a joseki that I don't realize that in such cases I'm reduced to playing from first prinicples, and I find it hard to come up with good moves that way. With the diagonal fuseki, as opposed to playing (or playing against) the Chinese, sanrensei, Kobayashi, or what not, I really feel quickly reduced to playing from first principles.

:w12:

Part of approaching L17 from the left instead of the right is that I have more strength on the right since I've already approached Black down in the lower right. After :w14:

and

, I thought I had a reasonable result. It was only later that things started to go wrong, I felt.

:w20:

and

I've had this vague sense that C5 is the point to be aiming at, but I have to admit I don't know what to do with it once I've played there. That's probably why I played a suboptimal line after :w38:

.

I wouldn't know which stones to sacrifice.

:w26:

I implied, but didn't say outright with my comment, that none of the several moves I was considering looked particularly better than any of the others. And this is a move I actually spent a fair amount of time on, at least by the standards of online go, where most people seem to play blitz no matter the time settings.

:w34:

I played F17 since I thought it was the right move for the endgame: when Black tries E18, then F19 is sente. Plus, as you said, the F18 clamp is a pain, and F17 prevents that.

:b53:

Yes, I was already worried about my groups having been split. :w52:

was played to prevent Black from playing under my stones and connecting. (See Black's later play of F2.)

I may have more later, as well as a reply to dfan.

mitsun · **#164**

I have a few lengthy comments on three particular mistakes, hopefully with some guidance on how to think about similar positions in the future.

Strategic error #1

You should know that after the double-wing extension to C13, B can and should invade at the 3-3 point and live inside. If W wants to keep the corner, C15 is the maximum extension, while C16 is safer (leaving less aji); both are good moves. The question then is whether a wider extension and subsequent B invasion can give W a better result? The difference in corner territory will over 20 points. So can W make 20+ points of useful outside thickness by confining B to a small life? On an empty board that might be possible, but here the B stones at C10 and L17 make that unlikely. After the corner is settled, W will not be able to make an efficient extension in either direction, and there will be no way to use the W thickness to attack any weak B stones. The conclusion is that the extension to C13 is wrong; it is better to secure the corner territory.

Shape error

C6 is not a good shape move. The shape move is to draw back to D5 in sente, letting B connect underneath. W can be satisfied with this exchange and switch to the next large point. The problem with C6 is that by plastering these stones tightly against the B formation, W leaves behind a cutting point and shortens his own liberties. D8 has exactly the same problem. The result here is not good for W, certainly not worth giving up sente. You lost nearly a full move here.

Strategic error #2

After B invades at R9, W needs to come up with a strategy. Playing softly on top at Q10, letting B get a comfortable life along the side, would be reasonable if W could then secure a large center territory. This seems a little unlikely, but if you made that your strategy and carried through consistently, it could be a reasonable game plan. The other choice is to block B from making easy life on the side and find a way to profit from an attack. You apparently went for this plan, but you blocked on the wrong side.

Here are a few ways to decide which side to block, or equivalently which direction to attack.

1) Block B from moving into the larger open space. This is partly because he will find it easier to make a base in that direction, and partly because you would like it to become your territory. Where else are you going to profit from this attack?
2) Block on the side that forces B to run into your existing thickness. Here the two stones at R5-R6 are more of an immediate threat to B (if you block at R10) than are the two distant stones at R16-Q14 (if you block at R8).
3) Consider the possibility of a leaning attack, as a means of strengthening your position in the direction where B will be running. On the bottom, you have several really strong forcing moves like P4 and N4. This means that the Q5 stones are really much stronger than they may appear. On the top, you have only O14, and that move is not very severe.

Fedya · **#165**

Quote:

First, white tended to build thickness without a plan for how to use it, but just because it was something to do, and to play overly defensive moves to keep everything connected without considering what might have an effect on black.

Well, to be honest, I don't know what to do with thickness. Technically, I do know that strong players say not to use it as one part of a wall surrounding territory, but to use it to attack elsewhere and profit from the attack someplace else on the board. The thing is, I just don't see how this ever works in practice. At least, it never seems to work in my games.

So why did I allow my opponent to take territory and give me thickness? For a long time, I had the attitude that thickness never worked for me despite what strong players say about it being OK, and felt like getting thickness in exchange for territory was a recipe for disaster. No wonder I could never get anything good out of thickness! But if I want to get better I'm going to have to figure out what to do with it in those situations when I can't avoid it (or when letting my opponent get the small territory is the right thing to do).

Bill Spight · **#166**

Some comments on your last posted game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm59 Oops! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X . X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O C O X X . X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black 159 threatens to kill. This was unexpected. At such times remember ACH (Achtung!): Analyze, Count, How.

Well, a preliminary analysis and count go together. White has one, count'em, one eye (marked) and no obvious second eye. Also, he has no obvious escape route. How to live? Probably by capturing something, such as one or more of the marked Black stones in the next diagram.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Capture something $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O B . X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . B O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O B B . B O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This you made a valiant effort to do, but you had a hallucination.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm59 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O 3 . X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X 2 X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O 7 6 4 X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X 5 X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O 8 O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You saw this sequence, in which Black would put himself in atari with Black 165. What you did not see -- until Black 163--, was that Black 165 would capture the two White stones. The self atari was a hallucination. I commend you for seeing so far ahead, even if you had a hallucination. Everybody has hallucinations.

But this is not the only time that you have had such hallucinations. As I mentioned before, counting the dame can help you to avoid them.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Atari, atari $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X . X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . 1 X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X 2 X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It is plain that the atari stone, :w1:

, has only two dame to start with, and after :b2:

, it has only one. It takes no deep reading to see that it is doomed. Count the dame!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm59 Semeai $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X . X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X . X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O a O O O B B . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O b O B B B . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 1 2 c . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If we assume White 160 - Black 161, to save Black 159, then we have a semeai between the White group and the :bc:

stones. Let's count the dame. If Black can threaten to cut the bamboo joint with sente -- not possible now, but maybe later --, then White has 6 dame. Black also has 6 dame, but since White has an eye and Black does not, does Black get to count the shared dame at "c"? Also, it is White's move. Now, because of various threats, the dame count is not the whole story of this fight, but so far it looks very promising!

Count the dame!

You might like to play around with this position.

Bill Spight · **#167**

Fedya wrote:

skydyr wrote:

First, white tended to build thickness without a plan for how to use it, but just because it was something to do, and to play overly defensive moves to keep everything connected without considering what might have an effect on black.

Well, to be honest, I don't know what to do with thickness. Technically, I do know that strong players say not to use it as one part of a wall surrounding territory, but to use it to attack elsewhere and profit from the attack someplace else on the board. The thing is, I just don't see how this ever works in practice. At least, it never seems to work in my games.

Actually, as your recently posted game records have shown, your fighting skills are not bad for a 5 kyu. You have the ability to make use of thickness.

DrStraw · **#168**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O 4 5 X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X 3 X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O 1 2 . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X . X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After the sequence above black has a choice: connect or block.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , 4 . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X 2 1 X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O 3 O X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O . O X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O O X . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X . X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . 3 . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X 1 2 X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O X O X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X O X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O O X . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X 4 X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Either way white lives.

Fedya · **#169**

Quote:

3) Consider the possibility of a leaning attack, as a means of strengthening your position in the direction where B will be running. On the bottom, you have several really strong forcing moves like P4 and N4. This means that the Q5 stones are really much stronger than they may appear. On the top, you have only O14, and that move is not very severe.

P4 and N4 are strong moves? P4 in particular looks like aji keshi to me, just asking Black to repair the defect at P3.

Fedya · **#170**

I think I discussed most of the other moves dfan commented on, but in response to

Quote:

I would probably tenuki with :w48:

rather than save two stones.

I felt like I had to play something first to make certain that I got one eye at least, but also because letting Black take those two stones would make the whole group look weak. I didn't think I could play the hane at E9. I didn't like E6 one bit, but I didn't see anything better.

Bill Spight · **#171**

I said that it might be interesting to play around with this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm62 White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X . X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X . X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Let's play. Here are three possible continuations.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm62 Move 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X . X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X . X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm62 Move 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X . X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X . X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm62 Move 3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O 1 . X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X . X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X . X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Enjoy!

Knotwilg · **#172**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm62 Move 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X . X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X . X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O 1 . . 3 2 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I choose this move because it increases White's liberties to 7 while reducing Black's to 5. That sounds like a promising start of a fight. Moreover, White doesn't need to do anything spectacular to win the game, just live with this dragon (by capturing those stones, preferably).

The other two moves don't do both things at the same time or even either one.

If Black 2, White 3

Fedya · **#173**

I think I like Dr. Straw's much simpler solution. I presume it's enough to win the game? (Yes, I counted.)

Bill Spight · **#174**

Fedya wrote:

I think I like Dr. Straw's much simpler solution. I presume it's enough to win the game? (Yes, I counted.)

Well, if you are not willing to turn the tables on Black (or to live by threatening to), how will you ever become a dangerous opponent?

One of the main flaws in your game is focusing on your own stones, your own territory, without due consideration of what you can do to your opponent's stones and territory. You do not take advantage of the fighting skills that you already possess.

And your stated purpose is to get to 5 kyu, not just to win this game or that game. To do that, you have to learn some things.

DrStraw has shown you one lesson in this position. Knotwilg has shown you another one. There are others.

Edit: And for a simple solution, how is this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm60 Lives in sente $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X . X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X . X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 X 1 . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Fedya · **#175**

I figured if I played White 160 at G2, Black would respond at E2. Still only have one eye.

Fedya · **#176**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Moves 52 to 55 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . O . . . . . O . 2 1 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , O O O . . X 3 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X X X . . 4 . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . X . . . X . X . O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So what am I supposed to do to make certain I get two eyes in the corner? I had White in this game, and screwed up somewhere, getting killed in the upper right and then generally getting slaughtered elsewhere when I made much-too-severe invasions to try to make up for it. I tried playing a bunch of variations in the top right, but couldn't figure out what to do.

More frustratingly, it looks like yet another game where I've fallen badly behind early on. I looked at the position before :w1:

, and counted Black having about 5 points more than White on the bottom; Black's top left group having about five points more than White's bottom right stones will get, and Black's right side having about 15 more points (50 to 35) than White at the top. Above and beyond that, Black has that extra group in the lower right which will get about 15 points, so Black seems ahead by at least 30. I look and look and look, and just don't see where I keep going wrong. :scratch:

dfan · **#177**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . 2 1 3 . . | $$ . O 4 X O . . | $$ O . . X O 5 . | $$ X X . . X a . | $$ . . . X . . . |[/go]

This should be standard knowledge by your level. (Maybe you can play :w5:

at a, but at the very least :w5:

works.) Of course it damages your upper side, but you knew that when you invaded at the 3-3 point.

My advice for how to see this next time depends on which of the following is true:

You didn't know the standard 1-2-3-4 sente sequence, threatening to connect
You didn't know that the L+1 shape is alive (edit: that is, White to move can live, thanks Majordomo)
You knew all this but somehow couldn't put it all together
I am wrong about whether this sequence works

(Edit: By the way, I think it was more important to look to the safety of your bottom right group than play the 3-3 invasion. Urgent before big.)

Bill Spight · **#178**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm62 Dame in sente $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O 1 . X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O B 2 X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X . X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

threatens to live by capturing the :bc:

stone. If

, then White has increased his dame count by 1 in sente. On the assumption (which should be verified by reading) that that means that White wins the semeai, White can seal the deal with the descent, :w64:

, a large yose which threatens to slide into Black's corner. Increasing your dame count in sente is a good lesson here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm62 Easy life $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O 1 2 X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X 5 X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O 3 4 . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X . X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black will probably not want to let White gain a dame in sente. One way to avoid that is with :b63:

in this diagram. However, that gives White easy life.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm62 The other way $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , C C . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O 1 3 X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X 4 X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O 2 . . X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X . X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So let Black try the other way. After :b65:

White faces a possible escape via a jump to one of the marked points, depending on the weakness of the surrounding Black stones. This kind of escape is not uncommon. It is something that you should be familiar with.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm66 Escape $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , 6 3 7 8 . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X 5 4 X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X X X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O X . 2 X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X 1 X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O 9 O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

threatens to live and takes away a Black dame in sente. Then :w68:

jumps out and also peeps at 72. OC, if Black plays at 72 White will make a bamboo joint at 71.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm66 Escape $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , 4 3 5 6 . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . 7 X O 8 X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X X X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O X . 2 X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X 1 X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The diagonal attachement, :b69:

, is better for Black, as it does not cost a dame. White is unable to capture the Black stones, but still escapes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm66 Escape this way? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O X X X X O O . O . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X O O O O O X O O O X . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X X X O X X . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . X . X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X X X . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , 3 . . . . , O X X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X O . X X X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . O O X O X . O O O . | $$ | . . X O X X X X O . . O O O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O X . 2 X O . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X X 1 X O . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . O O O X X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X X X . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Can White escape this way?

Left as an exercise for the reader.

Bill Spight · **#179**

Fedya wrote:

I figured if I played White 160 at G2, Black would respond at E2. Still only have one eye.

Right. Considering only your own stones, and not the effect on your opponent's stones. Major flaw.

Majordomo · **#180**

Isn't the L+1 unsettled? Aka whoever has sente can kill? However in your example black would need to block at A so white is alive.

Question about your game Fedya - in the lower right, did it play out something like approach, pincer, jump, extend, slide, 3-3, and then you tenuki? I always thought (as a general rule) you avoided to do the slide because you can play Q9 after you jump up and your opponent plays 04 - then you save the 3-3 for later, since if you slide you remove the possibility of that?

As to your count, I think you are overly generous to black maybe? I thought one wasn't supposed to count potential but only actual points. The danger I think is that because your stick is unsettled he can grow his right side moyo while attacking you.

(also, since I'm just a 5k I don't trust my own advice most of the time and neither should you)

What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

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