Well, I didn't know that when I was at Fedya's level. I didn't even know it when I was 4 kyu.dfan wrote: This should be standard knowledge by your level.
Besides, this kosumi is worth learning.
in this diagram gives Black the good move at 
.What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
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Bill Spight
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Besides, this kosumi is worth learning.
in this diagram gives Black the good move at .The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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dfan
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Ha, so the answer really is #4! But yes, White is alive because Black hasn't blocked it yet (or White could just start with a in my diagram and then pull back to make the L+2 which is alive). Thank you!Majordomo wrote:Isn't the L+1 unsettled? Aka whoever has sente can kill? However in your example black would need to block at A so white is alive.
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dfan
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Wow, that is surprising. I thought that both the sente-threaten-to-connect sequence (which you learn as soon as you get your 4-4 keima approach pincered, jump in to the 3-3, and then get cut off) and the L group knowledge (which of course I embarrassingly misworded) were things ones learns around 10k. It just goes to show you that everybody learns things in a different order.Bill Spight wrote:Well, I didn't know that when I was at Fedya's level. I didn't even know it when I was 4 kyu.dfan wrote: This should be standard knowledge by your level.
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Majordomo
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
I can't keep all the L, L+1, L+2, L's with hanes and J's and J+1s and J's with hanes straight in my games either. Just the most basic variants and a vague idea that to kill it starts with the hane then take it from there.
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dfan
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
All I know is that L is dead and each +1 bumps it up one more category of aliveness (both L+1s are unsettled, L+2 is alive). I find that the hane versions are less important in practice at my level because usually there was already a non-hane version on the board beforehand. I haven't gotten to remembering the Js yet 
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sparky314
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
The L and J groups are probably good resources to study.
I have to admit, I haven't studied them enough to remember how to live/kill, so I end up spending time in my games rereading them out. Should probably put them on the list of definite *must know* study.
So many different ways up the mountain.
I have to admit, I haven't studied them enough to remember how to live/kill, so I end up spending time in my games rereading them out. Should probably put them on the list of definite *must know* study.
So many different ways up the mountain.
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DrStraw
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Things have advanced quite a bit since you were 4k. For one thing, 4k then is probably 8k now.Bill Spight wrote: Well, I didn't know that when I was at Fedya's level. I didn't even know it when I was 4 kyu.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Fedya
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Apparently I have some pretty big holes in my game.dfan wrote: This should be standard knowledge by your level.
No, I didn't know that. All I saw was that I was well behind, and couldn't see any better way of reducing Black's big group on the right side.(Maybe you can playat a, but at the very least
In the game I played:My advice for how to see this next time depends on which of the following is true:
- You didn't know the standard 1-2-3-4 sente sequence, threatening to connect
- You didn't know that the L+1 shape is alive (edit: that is, White to move can live, thanks Majordomo)
- You knew all this but somehow couldn't put it all together
- I am wrong about whether this sequence works
Descending from
didn't seem right since I realized Black would clamp at S18. It was only after playing T18 that I realized Black would play S19.I thought I was way behind! Trying to take away some of Black's territory was more urgent than playing gote moves just to make certain another group wouldn't be attacked!(Edit: By the way, I think it was more important to look to the safety of your bottom right group than play the 3-3 invasion. Urgent before big.)
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Fedya
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
The sequence was actually approach, pincer, jump, Black jump to P8, slide, Black jump to O4, jump, 3-3, J3. After the jump to P8, I didn't know what to do next. I've since looked it up on josekipedia; I don't particularly understand the ideas behind their suggestions. I'll have to think about that for a while.Question about your game Fedya - in the lower right, did it play out something like approach, pincer, jump, extend, slide, 3-3, and then you tenuki? I always thought (as a general rule) you avoided to do the slide because you can play Q9 after you jump up and your opponent plays 04 - then you save the 3-3 for later, since if you slide you remove the possibility of that?
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Bill Spight
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Or shodan in Japan.DrStraw wrote:Things have advanced quite a bit since you were 4k. For one thing, 4k then is probably 8k now.Bill Spight wrote: Well, I didn't know that when I was at Fedya's level. I didn't even know it when I was 4 kyu.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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dfan
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
That's great! It means there is a really obvious and easy hole to patch. I am always really happy when I find out that I was missing some fundamental knowledge that I should have acquired by now, because addressing it now is usually pretty easy and makes a noticeable difference, as opposed to the laborious task of upgrading a maxed-out 6k brain to a 5k brain.Fedya wrote:Apparently I have some pretty big holes in my game.dfan wrote: This should be standard knowledge by your level.
You didn't say which of the 3 possibilities was true, and instead elaborated on your thought processes during the game (side note: it is good to be self-aware, but I think in general you focus too much on documenting your current thoughts and not enough on figuring out how to swap out those thoughts for better ones), but if you do figure out which one was the case, and fix it, you'll have made a nice qualitative jump, just from one game.
OK, that is another thing to learn for next time. Usually when you jump into the 3-3 point, your opponent will seal you in, which means he will have more strength against your nearby stones than before. You have probably seen this happen a hundred times, perhaps without thinking about it; now you can think about it.No, I didn't know that. All I saw was that I was well behind, and couldn't see any better way of reducing Black's big group on the right side.(Maybe you can play
In the saying "urgent before big", "urgent" refers to life or death and "big" refers to points. By the way, your 3-3 invasion is almost certainly going to be gote.I thought I was way behind! Trying to take away some of Black's territory was more urgent than playing gote moves just to make certain another group wouldn't be attacked!(Edit: By the way, I think it was more important to look to the safety of your bottom right group than play the 3-3 invasion. Urgent before big.)
Let's see, Black has about 10 points in the top left, 12 in the bottom left, 18 in the bottom right = 40 plus whatever he can get on the right (which, granted, is a lot). White has about 10 on the bottom left and 45 on the top (just drawing a line between E11 and L16) plus komi = 60+. It's still anybody's game now, but there's only one weak group, and if Black spends the rest of the game attacking it, he'll turn that right side into tons of territory.
Some ideas: S8 or S3 (getting eyespace and taking territory away from Black while making some yourself), N7 or M8 (running into the center while not letting Black make territory while attacking), N4 (pushing down on Black while trying to make eyes). Note that none of these moves are gote (that is to say, if Black ignores them, you have great followups).
I have a feeling that if you were Black you also would have thought you were way behind
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Bill Spight
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Hear, hear!dfan wrote:That's great! It means there is a really obvious and easy hole to patch. I am always really happy when I find out that I was missing some fundamental knowledge that I should have acquired by now, because addressing it now is usually pretty easy and makes a noticeable difference, as opposed to the laborious task of upgrading a maxed-out 6k brain to a 5k brain.Fedya wrote:Apparently I have some pretty big holes in my game.dfan wrote: This should be standard knowledge by your level.
Every middle SDK has large gaps in their go knowledge. Getting a good grounding in the basics is a good way to make progress.BTW, Fedya, why didn't you play the hane and connect in the corner?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
What can White do in this position? I agree that Black seems to have the edge, mainly because of the weakness of White's marked group. Black has a huge framework on the right, but it is kind of stretched thin. Black threatens a play at "a", attacking White's weak group while enlarging and strengthening the Black framework. The usual invasions of "b" and "c" have the disadvantage that the ensuing fighting is likely to weaken the 
stones. The reducing play at "d" is interesting, and is locally a shape play, but it, too, can end up weakening the already weak White group. "e" is an interesting invasion, threatening to go into the corner or into the side. But it is only an invasion. "f" is big, threatening to kill the corner; almost double sente. "g" is big, the double keima on the frontier of frameworks. Don't let the double keima get away.
Here is another thought.
and 
prepare the way for the double keima at 
, preventing the push and cut. White has strengthened his weak stones, and weakened the 
stones. Now plays like "a" and "b" are live options, and White still has the possibilities of "c" and "d".
stones. The reducing play at "d" is interesting, and is locally a shape play, but it, too, can end up weakening the already weak White group. "e" is an interesting invasion, threatening to go into the corner or into the side. But it is only an invasion. "f" is big, threatening to kill the corner; almost double sente. "g" is big, the double keima on the frontier of frameworks. Don't let the double keima get away.Here is another thought.
and prepare the way for the double keima at , preventing the push and cut. White has strengthened his weak stones, and weakened the stones. Now plays like "a" and "b" are live options, and White still has the possibilities of "c" and "d".The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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mitsun
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Leaning attacks are by definition aji-keshi -- you are cashing in on the aji in one particular way (asking your opponent to repair a defect), in order to gain strength to advance an attack elsewhere. In this particular situation, B is already low on the bottom, so forcing him to make territory there is fine. Since these moves are aji-keshi, they should be played only after B commits to running in this direction, when you know they will be useful in the attack.Fedya wrote:P4 and N4 are strong moves? P4 in particular looks like aji keshi to me, just asking Black to repair the defect at P3.3) Consider the possibility of a leaning attack, as a means of strengthening your position in the direction where B will be running. On the bottom, you have several really strong forcing moves like P4 and N4. This means that the Q5 stones are really much stronger than they may appear. On the top, you have only O14, and that move is not very severe.
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EdLee
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