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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #221 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:55 pm 
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Why is it bad? I'm keeping all of my stones connected. If I don't play there, Black will and won't I have to sacrifice something?

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Post #222 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:03 pm 
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Cutting there and invading the corner are miai. If black cuts, you take the 3-3. If Black defends 3-3, the cut is no longer large, so you will let him take a stone or two.

edit. I guess miai is the wrong word. Basically, the original approach stone is light.

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Post #223 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:06 pm 
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Thinking about dfan's comments, one of the things I know I have trouble with is understanding joseki. I know you're not just supposed to memorize joseki, you're supposed to know why the moves are good. And that's where I struggle. Figuring out which joseki to choose to go well with the other corners of the board is one of those things that feels like an utter mystery to me most of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #224 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:34 pm 
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Fedya wrote:
Thinking about dfan's comments, one of the things I know I have trouble with is understanding joseki. I know you're not just supposed to memorize joseki, you're supposed to know why the moves are good. And that's where I struggle. Figuring out which joseki to choose to go well with the other corners of the board is one of those things that feels like an utter mystery to me most of the time.



It's mostly a mystery to me, too. I know very few joseki by heart, so there are often situations where I just have to guess at appropriate corner moves. It was freeing when I realized that I could just guess at the right moves. Sure, sometimes it ends in utter failure, but I learn a lot each time.

While I don't think that Robert Jasiek's book Easy Learning: Joseki actually makes learning joseki easy, it is a good way to start thinking about the purpose behind joseki moves. If you take a look at that book, I would focus on the content more than the problems; I found their difficulty very uneven.

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #225 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:32 am 
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Fedya wrote:
I think it's time to post another game. I won, which was a pleasant surprise since every time I tried to count I got the impression I was behind. (Considering that I had White and won by less than komi, I probably did have less territory on the board every time I tried to count.)

More importantly, this looks to me like another of those games where my attempt to deal with my opponent's big moyo resulted in my getting weak groups, while my opponent had no difficulty finding the weak points in my moyo. Specifically, D7 was a problem even though the group lived, and I thought I got a bad result out of the O17 approach.


The O-17 approach was questionable. You should have played a wedge instead.

Congratulations on your win, BTW. :)


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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #226 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:50 am 
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Quote:
Cutting there and invading the corner are miai. If black cuts, you take the 3-3. If Black defends 3-3, the cut is no longer large, so you will let him take a stone or two.

edit. I guess miai is the wrong word. Basically, the original approach stone is light.

You can sacrifice O17 and get a good result? I'm going to have to think about that one for a while and try to understand it.

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #227 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:02 am 
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Fedya wrote:
Quote:
Cutting there and invading the corner are miai. If black cuts, you take the 3-3. If Black defends 3-3, the cut is no longer large, so you will let him take a stone or two.

edit. I guess miai is the wrong word. Basically, the original approach stone is light.

You can sacrifice O17 and get a good result? I'm going to have to think about that one for a while and try to understand it.

You might like to study this game I played on OGS years ago (quiller was a lot stronger than 1k, that's a timeout rank; I lost my first game to him): https://online-go.com/game/169785. Typically after the n5 wedge and atari-connect black will o4. This makes the 3-3 somewhat harder to live (q6 high vs r6 low makes a big difference) as after r3 then if black q3 blocks white's can't q2 hane and connect in sente (same idea as in viewtopic.php?p=209473#p209473) as the p3 cut doesn't work afterwards with o4, but if black cuts at o6 then that hane and connect is sente so life is fairly comfortable (maybe black wouldn't q3 block in that case). But in that game black didn't even cut, he just protected the 3-3, an interesting but somewhat greedy move. I simply tenukid, as the wedge made my outside stronger so developed my moyo. You can see that later when he cut at o6 I didn't try to save the stones but sacrificed and entered his right side moyo. I probably had some OGS games with the more normal o4 but I can't recall them atm, but that game sticks in my mind.


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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #228 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:08 pm 
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I didn't get a chance to mention it this morning, but I see I've got Bill and other players suggesting I should have played a wedge (I presume something like L17) instead of O17, and Shaddy saying I got a good result from O17 (at least up until :w28:). That's giving me a good deal to think about, too.

I haven't gotten around to looking at Bill's review yet, but I still can't figure what I should have done with Black's right side.

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #229 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:13 pm 
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Bill asked me in his review:

Quote:
Despite getting surprised like this time and again, you have not developed your spidey sense about your own weak groups. Why is that?


That's a good question, and one that I wish I had a good answer to. I think it has something to do with my poor sense of weak and strong groups in general. In looking at the games I've posted here, I obviously have difficulty finding the weak points in my opponents' moyos. Consider, for example the position that Bill commented on back in post #193. All I could see was a big moyo, and couldn't find any way to weaken it. And then when I do try to hit my opponents' weak points, the points I pick are often not the right ones. My play at D7 in the most recent game comes to mind.

How do I improve my positional evaluation?

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Post #230 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:13 pm 
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Quote:
How do I improve my positional evaluation?
  • Continue to improve at tsumego -- sense of shapes, vital points, ko, what's killable, what's not killable ( both sides of the same coin ) ;
  • Continue to improve knowledge of shapes -- strengths and weaknesses of ( common ) shapes ;
  • Continue to improve at tesujis -- sense of what's available locally ;
  • Continue to improve at fighting ability -- knowing whether you can handle a particular fight correlates to the evaluation of whether the fight is good for you ( or your opponent ) ;
  • Examples of applications of the above: to identify a critical moment ; to identify whether a tenuki is good ; to identify ways to exploit a local situation ; to identify when & where to start ( or avoid ) a fight ;
  • Continue with reviews & feedback of your games from good teachers --
    in particular, when they agree with your position evaluation ( positive feedback loop ),
    and when they disagree with yours ( adjustment, new angle, new knowledge ) -- quality & level of teacher important ;

... just a few examples. (*)
(*) Baby steps:

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #231 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:02 pm 
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What's the best way to improve knowledge of good/bad shape?

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #232 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:26 pm 
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Try hard to notice when you have wasted stones, like the corner of an empty triangle. Think about sequences you could have played to avoid playing those wasted moves (change order, sacrifice, etc.)

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #233 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:35 pm 
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Fedya wrote:
And then when I do try to hit my opponents' weak points, the points I pick are often not the right ones. My play at D7 in the most recent game comes to mind.


The peep at D-07 is not a bad idea. It aims at attacking the Black stones in the bottom left. However, Black gets in the first strike.

The reduction at E-08 is one of those basics that you should learn. Then you will pick the right play more often. :)

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #234 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:39 pm 
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Fedya wrote:
What's the best way to improve knowledge of good/bad shape?


There are a couple of books that directly address the subject (e.g. Making Good Shape and Shape Up (free)), but I also think that studying joseki is a good way to learn about shape. If you look at the purpose of the various moves in a joseki, you'll start to get an idea of how far apart stones can be and still be connected, which shapes make the potential for eye space, and where there are weaknesses that the opponent can exploit for some gain. Evaluating joseki also helps you get a good picture of how strong players value territory versus influence, which is key to understanding what kind of shapes you should be making in a particular situation.

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #235 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:03 pm 
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jeromie wrote:
Fedya wrote:
What's the best way to improve knowledge of good/bad shape?


There are a couple of books that directly address the subject (e.g. Making Good Shape and Shape Up (free)), but I also think that studying joseki is a good way to learn about shape. If you look at the purpose of the various moves in a joseki, you'll start to get an idea of how far apart stones can be and still be connected, which shapes make the potential for eye space, and where there are weaknesses that the opponent can exploit for some gain. Evaluating joseki also helps you get a good picture of how strong players value territory versus influence, which is key to understanding what kind of shapes you should be making in a particular situation.


Solving life and death problems probably also helps with shape.

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Post #236 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:06 pm 
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Regarding shape, the books jeromie recommended are good.

I'd also suggest a concerted effort to study tesuji in depth. Tesuji can exploit bad shape, and give good shape. Get Strong at Tesuji is a good place to start, or re-read if you've already gone through it.

And, of course, pre-2000 pro Japanese games. Maybe a walk through Shusaku's games (Invincible)?

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #237 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:22 pm 
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I'll second the above, and should have thought of it before: tesuji and life and death problems do help a lot. If you do a lot (and repeat them), they will help you develop an intuition for key points. Good problem sets also show you that the intuition has to be backed up by reading, because while it's often right there are always exceptions.

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Post #238 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:39 pm 
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Fedya wrote:
What's the best way to improve knowledge of good/bad shape?


In addition to other suggestions, study handicap games, particularly pro-pro handicap games, as Black will almost always make good shape. :)

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #239 Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:42 pm 
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The last problem I posted involved playing under the stones; this one uses the concept as well, more or less. :) Black to play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | O O . X . . . . .
$$ | O X X . . . . . .
$$ | . O . X . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | O O O X . . . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?
Post #240 Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:01 pm 
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First instinct is to reduce eyespace and place inside like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | O O . X . . . . .
$$ | O X X . . . . . .
$$ | . O . X . . . . .
$$ | 3 . O X . . . . .
$$ | . 2 1 X . . . . .
$$ | O O O X . . . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


but...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | O O . X . . . . .
$$ | O X X . . . . . .
$$ | 4 O . X . . . . .
$$ | 3 5 O X . . . . .
$$ | 6 2 1 X . . . . .
$$ | O O O X . . . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | O O . X . . . . .
$$ | O X X . . . . . .
$$ | O O . X . . . . .
$$ | . 1 O X . . . . .
$$ | O O X X . . . . .
$$ | O O O X . . . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Haha, I've got him, you think, noting the following sequence!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | O O . X . . . . .
$$ | O X X . . . . . .
$$ | O O 3 X . . . . .
$$ | 2 1 O X . . . . .
$$ | O O X X . . . . .
$$ | O O O X . . . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


But then you note a twinkle in the opponent's eyes, as he flashes a toothless grin:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | O O . X . . . . .
$$ | O X X . . . . . .
$$ | O O 2 X . . . . .
$$ | 3 1 O X . . . . .
$$ | . 4 X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Oh, the agony! Foiled by "under-the-stones"! My anguish!

But then...

It's a miracle. It was only a vague hallucination - a daydream. You haven't your move yet. Thank goodness!

Easy does it. Take away the key point first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | O O . X . . . . .
$$ | O X X . . . . . .
$$ | . O . X . . . . .
$$ | 1 . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | O O O X . . . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


That's right. Easy does it. Don't be hornswoggled this time!

Your opponent imagines the beautiful under-the-stones tesuji from your past hallucination, and sets up for a repeat performance.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | O O . X . . . . .
$$ | O X X . . . . . .
$$ | 2 O . X . . . . .
$$ | 1 3 O X . . . . .
$$ | . 4 . X . . . . .
$$ | O O O X . . . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


But not this time. Alas, your wistful daydreaming has paid off.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | O O . X . . . . .
$$ | O X X . . . . . .
$$ | 2 O 5 X . . . . .
$$ | 1 3 O X . . . . .
$$ | . 4 . X . . . . .
$$ | O O O X . . . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Lightning strikes. It appears the same. Or is it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | O O . X . . . . .
$$ | O X X . . . . . .
$$ | 2 O 5 X . . . . .
$$ | . 7 O X . . . . .
$$ | 6 4 . X . . . . .
$$ | O O O X . . . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


What kind of trickery is this? The opponent glares. This is not how it was supposed to work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | O O . X . . . . .
$$ | O X X . . . . . .
$$ | 2 O 5 X . . . . .
$$ | 8 . O X . . . . .
$$ | 6 4 9 X . . . . .
$$ | O O O X . . . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Frustrated, he flips up the board and leaves. Under-the-stones will come another day... Against an opponent quicker to play, and slower to think.

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