GoUniverse (New KGS client)

[KOCMOHABT]

Ok, guys. A challenge window is done for a regular games. I'm working on a game itself, and i need your opinion. Should "score estimate" and "game analyze" be disabled during the game, or there is nothing bad if player will be avaliable to use this stuff during the match?
PS: In my own opinion, there is nothing bad in it

[dfan]

I feel strongly that it should not be possible to run a score estimator or analyze the game in progress while playing.

[yoyoma]

I vote to have score estimate and game analyze available.

[Ember]

I'm strongly against the use of score estimator and game analytics during the game, too. I think it's okay for turn-based games, but live games should be free of that.

[KOCMOHABT]

I got your point guys, but you can't stop ppl from using SE and GA during the game, anyone can use guest account for this stuff in original client. So why do not let use it in the normal way?

[LocoRon]

Should "score estimate" and "game analyze" be disabled during the game, or there is nothing bad if player will be avaliable to use this stuff during the match?

Considering some players will be using this (or other third party clients) and others will be using the official client, I think these features should be disabled for both players (unless they both can make use of them; ie, both players are using your client, if you can actually determine that).

Otherwise it's an unfair advantage.

[Crashdown]

KOCMOHABT, i agree with you, if they want to cheat, they will cheat. So you can allow this i think.

Even if i'm against SE and game analysis, they can use it whenever they want (Guest, like you said). So you don't really need to forbid it.

[dfan]

I think there is a large difference between

• This behavior is disabled (as it is in the current KGS client), obviously for actual reasons, but if you are tricky of course you can find ways to get around it, and
• This behavior is explicitly available in the client.

I assume that KGS assumes using the score estimator to be cheating, otherwise it wouldn't be disabled (it's more work to disable it than to keep it enabled). Given that, I don't really understand the "People can find a way to cheat no matter what, so we might as well explicitly add a convenient cheat button" philosophy.

Well, I've given my opinion twice already, which is probably once too many. Maybe I'll start a separate thread.

[KOCMOHABT]

Just because it was disabled in CGoban doesn't make it "cheat". You can use Score Estimate during your matches on Tygem for example, and they don't call it "cheat". Score estimate is enabled on OGS also, but Game Analyze - is an option, wich one user can disable in his own challenge.

[Koosh]

Here's my pros/cons list for this issue.

Pros
1) Score estimate would help greatly for newer players who can't count well and end up continuing games they know they've lost. This would help ease people into the game. This is the pro. There is a way to get this pro without upsetting the whole community; see 2 below.

Cons
1) Original KGS client doesn't allow it. Will GoUniverse have universal approval by the KGS community as a whole if it allows for something that the original KGS client doesn't? You want to support the community, not push for features that half of it will be against. That half will leave.

On a similar note, you could introduce this as a feature that people can only get on GoUniverse, but some people will see this as an agenda on your end to get people to abandon the original KGS client and will be put off by it.

2) Ideally, KGS should have had a policy where up until some set rank (10k? 5k? 1d?), people could use the score estimator in games. It doesn't, unfortunately, and so we are stuck with it. You might still be able to implement this in GoUniverse.

3) Yes, people could have a guest account and cheat, but it is pretty obvious to the other player when this happens, especially when you are not at the top and people don't watch your games. That type of player would end up on my block list.


Just my thoughts on the topic.

[EdLee]

I vote for Disabling of SE by default during a game.

If you do allow it during a game, it should be like Undo --
you must request to use SE from your opponent,
so your opponent is notified, and it is your opponent who gives you the permission to use SE during a game,
and every time you want to use SE during a game,
you have to make a new request, just like each Undo request.
Also, implement the same button as Undo:
"No more SE for the rest of this game."

( It is also your opponent who can add time to your clock, not yourself. )

Alternately ( or in addition ), you can add an option in the Custom Game window:
SE Disabled [x] -- so both players agree before the game whether to allow SE during this game.
( This option has been available for years on some Chinese/Korean clients. )

This seems very fair.

[KOCMOHABT]

I can't do that, because all of that wouldn't work in original client.

Ok, guys, i'm not going to swim against the tide, so SE and GA would be unavailable in a match. It's rly sad, because i don't see anything bad if my opponent would use any of this. Nowadays anyone can use 7d bot in a game and you will never knew it. So it seems strange for me to do not let ppl use at least SE. In my opinion if game in the internet is fun for you then you shouldn't care about such things like whether your opponent use SE and GA or not, but if you are playing in the internet with a studying purpose then SE can let you improve your judgment skills and your skill of choosing a game direction.

I know that i'm not alone with my opinion because Tygem/OGS/WBaduk do let players use SE during their games. But whatever.

[Kirby]

Just realized this thread, and I have to say that your work is awesome, KOCMOHABT. I already like it better than the java client, with the exception that I cannot play games

Sounds like you're already working on this, which is great. Once the functionality to play games is stable and released, I'll definitely consider using this is as my go-to KGS client

Great work

[KOCMOHABT]

Just realized this thread, and I have to say that your work is awesome, KOCMOHABT. I already like it better than the java client, with the exception that I cannot play games

Sounds like you're already working on this, which is great. Once the functionality to play games is stable and released, I'll definitely consider using this is as my go-to KGS client

Great work

I've already played several games through a new client . You can move, pass, undo, resign, but can't count scores. So it will be done rly soon.

[Kirby]

Just realized this thread, and I have to say that your work is awesome, KOCMOHABT. I already like it better than the java client, with the exception that I cannot play games

Sounds like you're already working on this, which is great. Once the functionality to play games is stable and released, I'll definitely consider using this is as my go-to KGS client

Great work

I've already played several games through a new client . You can move, pass, undo, resign, but can't count scores. So it will be done rly soon.

Also just realized that you might be the same person that made "Web Go Board", which I already use on a regular basis. Very awesome. Thank you for your contributions.