18th Nongshim cup

[trout]

2nd game;

Fan Tingyu defeated Ichiriki Ryo by resign.

Korea: Park Junghwan, Kim Jiseok, Lee Donghoon(through selection tournament), Kang Dongyoon(seeded), Lee Sedol(wild card)
China: Ke Jie, Tuo Jiaxi, Lian Xiao, Fan Tingyu, Fan Yunrou
Japan: Iyama Yuuta, Cho U, Kono Rin, Murakawa Daisuke, Ichiriki Ryo

Bold case - alive

[lichigo]

It was pretty fast for Fan tingyu, 124 moves. It seems to be a perfect game for Fan tingyu.

[Uberdude]

I can't help but think that something went awfully wrong for black if he had to invade so deeply.

I find very interesting because instead of living easily in the corner, white sacrificed in order to get a perfect outside wall. Not sure I would have dared to.

Could black have tried something else to approach/reduce white? A contact play on the komoku or playing at 62?

It looks like black didn't get anything there. Was playing a point below better?

My feeling is things went wrong for Ichiriki even earlier, as signified by at q10. The game result ended up making this stone look inefficient: black should have had miai of doing something good on the top side or something mean to the lower right white group. But white got to play first for a decent result in both areas. In the end he did cut off the q8 stones but white sacrificed them (and later the corner) nicely. So p13 cut was a good move I guess, and maybe r12 bad. Should r12 instead directly start action on the lower right? But great judgement from Fan to make it an almost hopeless game so early.

Like you say looks too normal: it's obvious white will outside attach to make a huge lower side territory and then black feels behind, so I think he needs some special move like e5.

[Uberdude]

@Uberdude: But Ichiriki is around Ke Jie's age, and I don't think you would argue against my assertion that Ke Jie is a little bit stronger. Even Shin Jinseo, who is like 2 years younger, is probably a bit stronger than Ichiriki Ryo.

Actually, I would. Ke Jie is a lot stronger .

[Shenoute]

My feeling is things went wrong for Ichiriki even earlier, as signified by at q10. The game result ended up making this stone look inefficient: black should have had miai of doing something good on the top side or something mean to the lower right white group. But white got to play first for a decent result in both areas. In the end he did cut off the q8 stones but white sacrificed them (and later the corner) nicely. So p13 cut was a good move I guess, and maybe r12 bad. Should r12 instead directly start action on the lower right? But great judgement from Fan to make it an almost hopeless game so early.

Interesting, and do feel a bit...cramped.
It would be nice to have professional commentary on this game. Generally I feel that I get more from comments about professionals' mistakes/blunders than about perfect play.

[Uberdude]

Thinking a bit more about the p13 cut from white: in that shape following from the q13 shoulder hit you do sometimes see black defend with good shape at o13 (black doesn't have the ladder here). This is a very thick and powerful move, but could feel a bit slow. It places emphasis on thickness and moyo in the centre, and says the right side is not valuable. I don't think white is going to jump to r11 or slide to s11 anytime soon as the top right is already settled with the 3-3, so the only value of the right side is regarding pulling out the s8 stone after push and cut there (though I fear there is a danger white can give that single stone at r8 before he's added q8 to it in exchange for living in the corner and black may feel overconcentrated on the outside, so there are timing issues). So I don't think o13 makes sense instead of r12 for move 25, but perhaps it could be considered for move 23 instead of j16? That leaves the top side open for white to come in at h17, but the knight's move answer at g15 to create miai of j16 press and d15/d17 combo for sabaki against the corner looks like a decent plan for black*. And if white doesn't enter the top and black gets a chance to play there maybe with the o13 power he might jump to f15 for a more ambitious development of the top whilst also eyeing the top left 3-3 invasion (which becomes more severe after the jump, maybe white would answer at d18 to secure the corner and open the top for an easy invasion).

* Like this game with a similar popular joseki of black building thickness across the top right: http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/68898/

[idontgetit]

from the pro commentaries I've seen (from weiqitv and sina), they think that black was slightly better after the white sacrifice, so at move 60. But Meng Tailing says black doesn't really know what to do with move 61 either, since a simple split on the bottom side doesn't look that great either, so maybe white isn't behind after all.

Sina says move 61 was really bad direction, but doesn't say what the proper direction is.

Then Meng Tailing says move 77 is the losing move. If he played the obvious move 1 lower, it would've been a very close match (but maybe white is slightly better). But after the sequences from 77-84, black lost a lot. And then move 85 was really bad, the extend upwards is the only move (although black would still be behind).

[hyperpape]

Personally I'm an Ichiriki Ryo fan, and I think he could become competitive on the international stage (especially since his family is already rich, maybe he won't care about earning money from domestic titles as much), but I think the fact that so many people are pleasantly surprised that a Japanese player beat lee sedol is proof that Japan is not doing as well as they could be, more than anything else.

It's one of the funny things in that for all the arguments going on, I don't think anyone who pays attention thinks that (with the possible exception of Iyama), the top Japanese players aren't significant underdogs against the top 10 players in the world. It's just do you think they're 3-1 or 4-1 underdogs, or do you think that overstates their chances?

[xiayun]

Next game:

Fan Tingyu vs. Lee Donghoon

[hyperpape]

That shoulder hit in the upper right is one of those moves that is not at all in my repertoire. It seems like it has been played in a lot of cases, and seems to serve several different purposes. It doesn't seem as if it always appears when White has the potential to make a side framework like this game, and it seems like it often, but doesn't necessarily result in B sacrificing the corner.

[Uberdude]

The AGA will be doing a commentary with Myungwan Kim on the Fan vs Lee game from midnight PST.

[idontgetit]

it's really interesting for me to watch Myungwan's commentaries and weiqitv's, because it shows the different kind of thinking and evaluation between Chinese and Korean pros really clearly.

Often times I see myungwan get surprised by a move (usually played by a Chinese player), and weiqitv guys are like, oh, he'll probably play there, but then I see weiqitv guys get surprised by a move (usually by a korean player) and Myungwan would be like "oh, that's pretty normal", etc.


Also, in unrelated news, Ke Jie is having a rematch against Chen yaoye in the ahantongshan cup (agon cup in china) today... and Kiss88 (Ke Jie's tygem account) bet 2,000,000,000 points on himself, which I find pretty funny

[Shenoute]

from the pro commentaries I've seen (from weiqitv and sina), they think that black was slightly better after the white sacrifice, so at move 60. But Meng Tailing says black doesn't really know what to do with move 61 either, since a simple split on the bottom side doesn't look that great either, so maybe white isn't behind after all.

Sina says move 61 was really bad direction, but doesn't say what the proper direction is.

Then Meng Tailing says move 77 is the losing move. If he played the obvious move 1 lower, it would've been a very close match (but maybe white is slightly better). But after the sequences from 77-84, black lost a lot. And then move 85 was really bad, the extend upwards is the only move (although black would still be behind).

Thanks for posting this.

[Uberdude]

AGA commentary has already started, looks like they meant midnight PDT not PST.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3iYjnJnqtGY

[idontgetit]

seems like black was leading the whole time, but played too safe and the game became close, but it was still a very close game, then suddenly, black played a failed timesuji and game was over...

Fan Tingyu vs Cho U next game if I'm not wrong