Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical example)?

Actorios · Post by **Actorios** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:09 am

Hi,
I'm currently playing a game on DGS trying to think through my moves. Reaching the end of the fuseki. I got to the below position (playing White), I really wasn't sure what to play (for information, I already made my move). I'd be glad to have the point of view of stronger players on this situation.
See below a few spot I wondered about playing? Am I missing any other which would make more sense? Which would you select and why?

Thanks,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Where would you play as White in this position? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . | $$ | . . a O . b . . . , . . . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . e . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X . . X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . d . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:14 am

Two others to consider are O4 (better than P5) and C15.

Given that there is no single move to secure white's moyo on the left I think I would be inclined to reduce with O4 and wait to see how black tackles the left. Whatever black does should allow white to secure enough.

Actorios · Post by **Actorios** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:28 am

DrStraw wrote:Two others to consider are O4 (better than P5) and C15.

Given that there is no single move to secure white's moyo on the left I think I would be inclined to reduce with O4 and wait to see how black tackles the left. Whatever black does should allow white to secure enough.

Thank you for your response.
That's interesting. I tend not to know when to shoulder hit (or not) and didn't even consider it.
I would have thought it would give a lot to Black and I would be afraid not to get a proper payback from the territory he would be able to make.
I believe you say it is better than P5 because it does a better job at flattening white, am I correct in stating that?

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:34 am

Actorios wrote:Hi,
I'm currently playing a game on DGS trying to think through my moves. Reaching the end of the fuseki. I got to the below position (playing White), I really wasn't sure what to play (for information, I already made my move). I'd be glad to have the point of view of stronger players on this situation.
See below a few spot I wondered about playing? Am I missing any other which would make more sense? Which would you select and why?

Thanks,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Where would you play as White in this position? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . f . . X X X . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . | $$ | . . a O . . . . . , . . . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X . . X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . d . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was surprised to learn that White is to move - I'd expected Black sente.

Black is overconcentrated at the right side, White is thick. The left side is wide, the lower side is relatively big but it is contained by the White thickness. As such, the invasion at D doesn't seem urgent. There's a cutting point at the top (F) but it's not very interesting as Black's top right is not vulnerable.

Looking at the left side again, it is so wide that it is even overstretched. Territorial moves like A or B come to mind, but they don't solve the main problem, which is the potential separation of the lower left.

Leaning at C is active but Black may simply ignore and invade, as he's behind.

Therefore, I advocate a calm move like E. Next, B and D are miai for White.
(still looking at C though)

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:39 am

DrStraw wrote:Two others to consider are O4 (better than P5) and C15.

Given that there is no single move to secure white's moyo on the left I think I would be inclined to reduce with O4 and wait to see how black tackles the left. Whatever black does should allow white to secure enough.

Me too I have a hard time to decide how to develop the left but O4 is still too close to White's thickness I think. If you decide to play the bottom I'd invade.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:01 am

I like 'd'.

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:03 am

Me too I have a hard time to decide how to develop the left but O4 is still too close to White's thickness I think

I find this interesting because where you see thickness I see a potential weak or heavy group.

As objective reasons for calling it potentially weak, it does not have any guaranteed eyes at all yet and is bounded by strong Black groups on both sides. If Black plays a move against it, White probably has to defend (or else accept a truly weak group), but his defensive move would be purely that - there is no move to make territory while defending.

I am also influenced in my opinion by a growing realisation that pros see weak groups much earlier than I do. To some extent that must be because they have far more terrifying weapons than I do, and so can go after lions where I can only go after rabbits, but I think also a big part of the reason is that we amateurs tend to think of weak groups as anaemic, weedy clusters that have to live urgently, whereas pros seem to count many groups that allow a powerful forcing move (as is the case here) as weak.

In this particular case, I would also argue that the White group cannot really be regarded as thick because it has no potential to do what thickness normally allows you to do. Black has no weak groups roundabout yet, and White can't even surround any territory with it. There is possible influence in the centre but it is too nebulous and too easy for Black to circumvent.

If you accept that thinking, an invasion at 'd' looks horrendous: it would lead to a splitting attack on two White groups. In that light a shoulder-hit reduction at O4 on the lower side looks more promising. If the reducing group can link up with the White group above it could give him some proper centre thickness. But that seems speculative, and seems to hand the initiative over to Black too readily.

So the right side (and maybe a quiet move there) seems more worthy of attention. This is still fairly open and so can be seen as a virtual territory of three units. Normally the idea is that out of two units of virtual territory, you can expect to get one (the opponent doesn't get much of the other but at least destroys it). With three units it much more problematical to come up with a good plan. The shimari at C15 looks good in that it takes one third of the virtual area at once and reduces what is left to two units. But that means White is looking at not much more than 40 points there and less than 10 in the upper right, with no immediate prospects of more anywhere else (all because of the inefficient White group on the right). Of course he gets the komi as well. Black's lower side can be treated as a three-unit virtual territory where he gets two thirds, so all in all he will at least match White's territory. But has the potential to make some more on the right, and his lower side currently looks easier to grow than White's left side.

On that basis, it seems to me White has to up the stakes, and so a quiet move like C15 or C10 could verge on being a slack move. I too would be looking at F5. It increases the potential value of the left side, overconcentrates Black and heightens the value of a subsequent reducing move. It also extends a helping hand to the right-side White group and has a good follow up around F10. The problem with C15 is that it can too easily turn into gote, so I'd be looking for tesujis to turn this into sente, but even if they don't exist, I think F5 may be enough to keep White in the game. At the very least it's liable to make Black enter the left side at once, and depending on how that goes White might get enough thickness there to exploit Black's potential weakness around M16.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:19 am

Seems thick to me, but this is more of a feeling than something I can logically articulate.

Either way, I feel comfortable as white in this position, so several options probably work.

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:35 am

Actorios wrote:
DrStraw wrote:Two others to consider are O4 (better than P5) and C15.

Given that there is no single move to secure white's moyo on the left I think I would be inclined to reduce with O4 and wait to see how black tackles the left. Whatever black does should allow white to secure enough.
Thank you for your response.
That's interesting. I tend not to know when to shoulder hit (or not) and didn't even consider it.
I would have thought it would give a lot to Black and I would be afraid not to get a proper payback from the territory he would be able to make.
I believe you say it is better than P5 because it does a better job at flattening white, am I correct in stating that?

I had something like this in mind.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . 9 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X . . X , . 3 4 1 . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . 8 . 6 2 X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White has given the lower side to black but has not lost the move at F5. The stones just played work with the group above to make potential territory. Those stones above were sort of meaningless wedged between two strong black positions. And the left side is untouched. White still has sente and so all the options on the left remain. As I said in the first post, the left is too big to finish in one move so now a move at 'a' looks plausible.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:49 am

I like DrStraw's final position. Seems reasonable.

It doesn't seem proper for black, but what is white's plan if black resists at

? I suppose the bottom left could be pressured without the direct connection, but I don't see how, exactly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X . . X , . 3 4 1 . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . 6 2 X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:59 am

The White group on the right side has a half eye in the middle, a strongly connected chain with 7 liberties to it, and can make an eye at the side. If that's not thick, I need to reconsider what thickness is. I agree that if Black adds many moves, then it can become weak.

Looking at Straw's sequence, I agree this doesn't overlap as much in influence as I thought and maintains White's overall thickness while keeping sente too. It's hard to see how White can resist. Added to the difficulty of finding 'the' move at the left side, I tend to agree now.

I also agree the invasion at 'd' in the first diagram would have been greedy.

If White can pull this off in sente, then build the left, I fully agree. As Black though, I would look for any opportunity to tenuki and play on the left side.

in your diagram already seems like good timing, as it is an almost pure territory move.

In any case, Black is behind and this is largely due to having made the exchange at the top right, where Black became overconcentrated and White ... thick.

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:40 am

Kirby wrote:I like DrStraw's final position. Seems reasonable.

It doesn't seem proper for black, but what is white's plan if black resists at ? I suppose the bottom left could be pressured without the direct connection, but I don't see how, exactly.

$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . X . . X , . 3 4 1 . , X a . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . 6 2 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X . . X , . 3 4 1 . , X a . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . 6 2 X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Good question. I did think of that when making the diagram but did not follow through on it because I was just posting quickly. Now I see it on the board my first reaction was to play 'a' and see how black replies.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:16 pm

Knotwilg wrote:The White group on the right side has a half eye in the middle

But it's not a half eye, is it? White needs two moves to guarantee an eye there.

I too have a hard time not seeing the group as thick, but let me try and imagine the case: this group has a lot of ways to live, but it's still prone to being bullied. No one would look at this board and say they'd be happy to scrounge for an eye on the right side, or spending two otherwise meaningless moves making that center eye an actual eye.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:33 pm

That's the general argument against allowing a weak group, but here, I'd feel comfortable giving black like 3 free moves in the area. I'll gladly play a Malkovich game from this position with anyone that disagrees

Any group that's not 100% alive can potentially be attacked, but black doesn't have much to gain right now by attacking, IMO.

That's why I'm even comfortable invading at 'd' here, even if it's greedy. Black could totally surround the invading group and I'm still not afraid of dying. At that point, sure, black can get some free attacking moves, but what good are they? Where are black's points?

That being said, I think DrStraws calm shoulder hit is a simpler way to wrap up the game and win, so I like it better.

To have a meaningful discussion, we need an even game to evaluate. From this board position, there are many ways to victory, so most options work.

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:50 pm

Kirby wrote:To have a meaningful discussion, we need an even game to evaluate. From this board position, there are many ways to victory, so most options work.

Interesting observation. I thought this game was fairly even and I would be comfortable taking over either side. If it were blacks move I would say he was definitely ahead.

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Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical example)?

Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical example)?

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl

Re: Where to play at the end of the Fuseki (practical exampl