The first variation is the one I tried, and I was quite surprised to see White live by playing under the stones.

There is still this variation to consider.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | O O . X . . . . .
$$ | O X X . . . . . .
$$ | . O . X . . . . .
$$ | 1 . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . .
$$ | O O O X . . . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Indeed

Just need some playful commentary to go along with it.

_________________
be immersed

I've been trying to play three or four serious games a week. I have a fair number of games, wins and losses, that I'm not exactly proud to post here: wins where I played badly but my opponent blundered and allowed me to win at the end, or games where I blundered in a strong position.

Last night, however, I had an interesting game. There's a lot that seems to come up often in my games, such as my opponent getting a big moyo right away, and my attempt to deal with it going wrong. (See C8.) But I wasn't that far behind, and eventually won by a few points after killing my opponent's stones at H4 that he should never have let get killed. I think playing sente moves and letting White capture F15 was also big. After the game, my opponent told me he was surprised when I was able to kill them! Apparently I'm not the only one with blind spots.

- This exchange seems good for B.

Feels slow.

Feels slow. Tenuki (e.g. K17, D15).

After the joseki, W gets a nice big wedge (R9, R10, etc.) Block Q17.

o18.

Big wedge (e.g. R9). Thus at Q17.

Big wedge (e.g. R8).

Pincer (e.g. Q8). Open skirt at F2: the bottom not the place to build.

Maybe F12 cap.

Seems heavy.

SGF note here: M6, N8, etc. seem dame. The game move seems better.

A11, H18, T9, B14, N18, etc.

11 - I would tenuki and approach the white top corner - but I guess this is a stylistic choice? Taking Q9 looks huge for black.

15 - I know there is a white stone at D17, but isn’t this still the wrong direction? White takes sente and breaks the right side?

23 - I always have a tough time calling hone from slow heh, but I’d do this as well I think.

25 - Can black pincer here for a better effect? Q7 Q8? Just regurgitating what I (think) I’ve been taught - that the pincer is severe and good for black here because black has support on the bottom already (and thus the Q5 approach is not common when approaching the kobayashi, instead R6)

33 - Will R9 be too easy for white to lean on to reduce black (such as attaching on top)? or Q9 - I’d just want to put more pressure on white’s group.

35 - This looks slow / slack to me play closer and if he invades you can lean against the shimari before attacking? Maybe something AlphaGo inspired like the D14 shoulder hit? Black is making something on the largest scale.

60 (your variation) - black jumps out and attacks the two stones? Shouldn’t be hard for black I think? Maybe I’m underestimating the danger to the triangled stones.

Hmm, just a sort of general feel from the game is that I think like me you lose sight of your target quite often - suddenly you obsess over defending a few points when you could be more severe - White was running around in “your” area - a few points doesn’t matter if you can cut and kill.

For example 49, can you take any sente moves against his bottom right group first, then come back to seal in his corner? Second, did your invasion after 43 help you a lot? Did it accomplish much beyond taking away some of white’s points - didn’t black have the better potential anyway so you could force white to take his territory while you build much more?

Having said all this, I’m right of from watching Inseong’s (from the Yunguseng Dojang) newest video on how pro’s are inspired by alphago heh (wherein attachments and these floaty centre moves seem to feature prominently). Also, I’m barely a couple of ranks ahead of you so like always, take it with a grain of salt heh.

The first thing I'll point out is that I played at R16 instead of Q17 because I thought the wall I would get would work better with the stone at the bottom, as opposed to a wall facing the opposite direction. I was also worried about the aji of the O17 stone. (Yes, I know, you're all going to tell me not to be fearful of the aji of my opponents' dead stones.)

Building a wall to work with my stones already on the board isn't a good idea?

More comments on the other comments when I have time to think more about them.

I just belatedly figured this one out myself in a recent game. What you want is that wall plus a stone on the right side star point the perfect distance from the wall. But White ends the joseki in sente and is able to play at the right side star point or thereabouts before you get to it. So you want to have that point occupied already before you start (as in a sanrensei).

The key point is that you end the corner joseki in gote. I had forgotten this too.


I hope that is not the lesson you learned.

Fedya, a useful way to think in positions like at move 11 is to compare with what you expected white to do. I think you know that after you make the Kobayashi formation with k4 it is common for white to approach the lower right corner (and maybe you even know about the distant low approach). So after responding to the white kick playing something in the lower right corner is likely to be a good direction as that is where white normally plays.

When I play, I think a lot about what stronger players have said to me, and try to use that advice in figuring out where to play/what strategy to employ. However, it also seems that when I'm most conscious of following that advice (or perhaps it's more accurate to say that I'm using that advice to justify my play), that's when I notice things going wrong.

What's interesting is that I picked the same wrong joseki in another recent game. (I ended up getting a winning position and then missing that my opponent could cut some of my stones, thereby blowing a won game. But that's another story.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm10 This mistake looks familiar....
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 6 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At this point I thought about which way to push White. I remembered the advice that you're supposed to use thickness to attack your opponent and make territory elsewhere. That, and the point of a wall is to push your opponent's stones toward it, so I played:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm19 This mistake looks familiar....
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

looks terrible. And I actually put quite a bit of thought into that and the previous move. The problem is that after White approached the wall I couldn't figure out what to do with it. I thought I was going to get a nice moyo on the bottom, until white played at K3 later, which caused me problems. There were a lot of tactical errors throughout the game, leading to a narrow loss when I probably should have won easily.

But I'm really posting this because it's indicative of the difficulty I have in actually understanding joseki. Sure, I can memorize sequences, but knowing why they're good is the rather more difficult thing. (I'm still trying to understand Ed Lee's final point in his previous reply to me.) It leads to picking the wrong joseki, and not knowing what to do if my opponent plays an unfamiliar move.

Thinking about this particular comment let me to the insight that perhaps one of my biggest problems is seeing how strategy develops over a large scale. That, I think, would explain why I have difficulty figuring out what joseki to pick. Likewise, it seems like it would explain why getting thickness instead of territory never seems to work out well for me.

Also, it gives a reason to my looking at moyos and seeing territory in my opponents' and not getting much territory out of mine. When I look at my opponents' moyos, I can look and look and still have a hard time figuring out where to play to keep my opponents from getting a large amount of territory out of them. Look at the C8 play in the previous game, or then switching to the other side and getting a mess of a position. By the same token, I keep getting surprised when my opponents keep playing inside my moyos on weak points I didn't realize I had.

Now how do I go about solving this problem?

Edited to add the following:

I was thinking about this more last night, and realized that I have a distressing tendency to play lines that look good when I think about them/try to read them out, but when I look at the outcome 20 moves later after the stones are actually on the board, I'm suddenly behind, with no understanding of how I got there. It's as though I can see the before and the after, but not the during.

Ed Lee asked why this is considered joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . X . O X X O . . |
$$ , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I presume it's because while one side gets certain territory, the other side gets a strong position on the outside and reasonable prospects for territory. The only thing is, in the game that I posted, White has a stone on the left that will prevent Black from getting so much territory. And there's still the aji of the O17 stone.

I'm really responding, though, because my recent games have left me with the decided impression that I'm still having a lot of trouble with joseki: figuring out what the moves in a given sequence are good, figuring out which one to pick, and what to do when my opponent plays a move I haven't seen before. The result is that I continue to fall behind early in my games, sometimes badly so.

Consider this recent game in which I had White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Moves 8 to 15
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 6 . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 . . . , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I thought was a good move, since it had a dual purpose of expanding my group in the lower left and putting pressure on the black stone at C14. But I quickly erred in the joseki; apparently I should have played at and Black would respond with a cross-cut, leaving me to try to figure out the correct follow-up. In the game, I exacerbated my problems by playing the hane at the head of two stones, D15, which doesn't work.

But I can't help but wonder if the problem really goes back to , and whether I should have approached from the other side. I know all of you are going to say that you approach from the open side, which here means approaching from my stone at C16, and that you're not going to lose the game with a slightly inferior move on move 8. Look what happened later in the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Moves 24 to 32
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . O X . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . 8 9 . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 1 . 7 5 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Having screwed up the top left so badly, I needed to attack someplace else, and I decided that I had to prevent Black from getting the entire bottom of the board. The attack doesn't work, however, and I don't see any other way to even try to stop Black. There's no good place on the bottom to play and allow myself a good extension. Just giving up the entire bottom of the board without a fight, however, doesn't seem like a very good strategy. And it all goes back to , when my play allowed Black to get a pair of extensions on the bottom, leaving me with no place to attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . X . W X X O . . |
$$ , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Follow-ups:

• If the stone is a big ( severe ) problem for B, would this still be considered joseki ;
• If one has access to a pro games database, one can study many pro games with this shape, and notice under what circumstances B would add another local move, and when W would activate the stone ;
• Notice the global context when B blocks this side ;
  

Wait a minute! You yourself admitted that you screwed up the upper left with 7 in the original diagram. (Not quite true, your "hane at the head of 2 stones" that left Black peeping at an immediate cut is the problem. That was not a hane, it was nonsense!) So based on your screw up, you decide the original idea was wrong. No! This later rationalization is what is wrong. Your original idea was excellent. Your later misuse of a proverb, "hane at the head of two stones", was incorrect in this situation. Stick with you own thinking and extend it further to those situations where you insist on slavishly following proverbs. Such proverbs have their place, but they don't apply to every case. We all have to think about what the proverb is about and whether it applies to the current game.

Later you invade the bottom. The only thought in your head is "extend". WTF? Your opponent attaches, you stand at 5 below. There is no more basic idea in Go. (OK, you might hane on top of 4, but that's another story) After you stand at 5 your opponent has achieved exactly nothing with 2 and 4! You have strengthened the left side with 3 and can still play the lower left 3-3 invasion after 5. Alternatively White can clamp 4 at "a". Meanwhile the extension or slide into the lower right is still available. But it's not that urgent since even if Black blocks, the 3-3 in the lower right is still open. Black has nothing here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc You want a proverb? Remember 5! "Extend against the attachment!"
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . O X . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . 5 . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the game, you answered 4 below with the extension to 5. Black answered at 6. Now look carefully at the board and ask yourself, "Which stone is more important here, 1 or 5?" If your answer is 5, take your book of proverbs and whack yourself on the side of your head until you change your mind. Black's 2-stone pillar is too strong. The play at 5 kept sente but has almost nothing else to recommend it. Time to extend from 1, leaving 5 as a forcing play. Black's lower left is still weak. If Black strengthens it, you can jump out, having successfully reduced the bottom.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc What's important here?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . O X . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . 7 . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 1 . . 5 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

PS: I just got back from my usual Saturday night drinking session so please excuse my overly robust commentary. You are not alone in your struggles. Sakai Maki 8p did his usual thorough job of kicking my butt in our monthly teaching game this afternoon, once again demonstrating how little of his insight has penetrated my thick skull in the last ten years. Despite that I continue to live in my state of complete denial, where I love playing Go, secure in the knowledge that "real soon now" it will suddenly all make sense!

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Thank you for your comments, ez4u. Ihave to admit I didn't respond earlier because I've was spending my go-thinking time of the last day trying to wrap my head around Ed Lee's comments. I still find it hard to see how leaving the aji of that stone there is a good thing. I suppose it's in part because I don't tend to get much territory out of an opening like that.

As for your comments, you make it all seem so simple. actually, most of you make it seem as though it should all be so simple. It leaves me feeling as though there's something obvious that all of you see that for whatever reason I just don't, and I have no idea what that something is.

This is why I say, Learn the basics. There is a lot that you don't know that even other players at your level know. The good thing is that, as you learn the basics of go, you will get stronger. There may be no magic bullet, but there is plenty of ammunition that you can add to your arsenal.

Edit:


One reason that things go wrong is that you lack the foundation to carry out your plans. Learn the basics.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I am sure that you are right, but I have found this phrase not particularly helpful. Is there a thread that you can link to that summarizes what the basics in your sense are?

Some people classify things under "basics" that I am pretty sure are not and that you would not classify as such.

Things that helped me most ("don't play too close to your enemy", "you are allowed to play somewhere else" at 18 kyu, for example) were usually always found in some comment or parenthesis but never in a cogent list because "everyone knows these things".

So, I guess, could you make a post listing the things that are not even basics to you, but simply everyone knows?

Hi Gotraskhalana, please see PM.

When I learned to play go, there was not much in the way of English language go literature. My main sources for the basics were Takagawa's Go Reader, Sakata's Killer of Go series, some small booklets from the Nihon Kiin with titles like Basic Tesuji, and the first volume of Maeda's Tsumego series. All in Japanese. For basics, you don't need much in the way of language, looking at the diagrams is pretty much good enough. Look for 基本 in the titles. I think that now there are a lot of books in English that cover the basics.

A good source of basic material online is Sensei's Library: http://senseis.xmp.net/

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.