The mistakes I make

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:21 am

mongus wrote:What I would be worried about, if i just played along the bottom right of Blacks Moyo is that by pushing up from the bottom right it would just push Black up towards the centre. It would be helping my opponent to build a large wall facing the centre of the board :

Something like the following (slightly exaggerated) scenario could ensue :

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . # @ . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . # @ . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . # @ . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . # @ . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , M . . # @ , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . M M M . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X Q . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . # @ . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . # @ . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . # @ . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . # @ . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , M . . # @ , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . M M M . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X Q . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black would have a very strong influence in taking the rest of the board.

Thanks for showing your fear, it rather surprised me! If we pair off the square-marked stones, I agree that each black stone is more useful than the adjacent white stone: their value in creating influence and potential territory to the centre is more than white's territorial gain to the right. However the white stones a bit further down do secure a decent right side territory so it's not so clear whose wall there is better. So how to stop black getting those pairs of stones on the board? Don't play the white ones: stop pushing mutual walls if their wall is better than yours! Below I have tried to anticipate how such a result might arrise in a DDK game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 0 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 5 6 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So let's examine these moves. This jump of black 1 is ok, growing the centre a bit and threatening to invade the right side. Invading the side directly might well be better, my feeling is it is soft but it's a fine DDK move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Next white peeps. This kind of inside for outside peep is often helping the opponent more than you, but it could be ok if the plan is to take sente afterwards (for example 4 is very big) and it means black can't invade the right side anymore: for example that peep means the kosumi of 6 works to enclose black, however perhaps it can still live inside with 7. Reading required (but my intuition says it lives).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O 7 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You should note the relationship between the peep stone and r11 is bad, but the peep stone is light and can be sacrificed in order to secure the side, in the result below black is short-changed:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 7 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 3 2 9 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X a O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After the peep black connected, this is fine. Next white pushed from behind as below. This is unquestionably bad.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white is going to play locally again (I prefer tenuki), jumping ahead is better. My judgement is that these 2 stones gained more for white in securing the right side territory than black gained with the centre wall. That's why I said the initial jump looks soft. I have roughly marked the additional territory these 4 moves have gained each side. Perhaps you didn't realise the right side was not white territory yet? That is important in judging these results.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 4 . M M . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . M M M | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . M M 3 2 . M M M | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . M M X . O M M M | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . M M | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Next black extends. This is a good move, but tenuki could also be possible (e.g. invade at a, that's why I wanted to get sente to jmup at the top as white). Note white has a weakness at b, but it's not so bad (he could answer by falling back to c or crawl at d and sacrifice the 2 stones similar to sacrificing the 1 peep stone before).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . a . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 1 . b d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . c . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As an aside we can apply a tewari argument to show why jumping as white before was better, imagine after white jumps black pushes at 5, a decent move. White would now prefer to extend at a than retreat at b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 5 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X b . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Next white pushes from behind again, another bad move (jump ahead to a better), but it does at least stop that elephant eye poke from before.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Next black extends again, locally a fine move but globally it could be a slow one, tenuki could well be better as white's hane there is not so painful (black's wall has many liberties).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Next white pushes from behind again, before it was bad, now it is awful as this doesn't even fix a problem in the right side territory, it just increases it by a point or two.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black extends again, locally good and the last exchange benefited black hugely. But tenuki is also good and could be even better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The comments for the last 2 diagrams can be repeated for these exchanges:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So in conclusion, at the beginning of this pushing battle it was ok for white to secure the right side territory, but then the moves accomplished little and helped black, so don't play them.

P.S. I also ought to mention that in answer to black's jump, white could simply jump to defend the right territory too (and maybe think about making a-b peep first). This defends the territory without any bad aji like the peep, but is gote. And just to be clear, if black now jumps at 3 (a soft move), white would tenuki, e.g. jump to 4 which both defends the top side territory and gently walks into the centre so black won't make much there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . a b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:13 am

mongus wrote:What I would be worried about, if i just played along the bottom right of Blacks Moyo is that by pushing up from the bottom right it would just push Black up towards the centre. It would be helping my opponent to build a large wall facing the centre of the board :

Something like the following (slightly exaggerated) scenario could ensue :

$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , M . . X O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . M M M . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X Q . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , M . . X O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . M M M . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X Q . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black would have a very strong influence in taking the rest of the board.

Your diagram, while unrealistic, as you readily admit, shows a good feel for the game.

Black's wall on the 6th line is better than White's wall on the 5th line.

At least by playing this floater I am in a sense pushing black down and suppressing his influence towards the centre.

The "floater" is problematic, but I would hesitate to criticize it at the beginner level. Had Black responded as in the next diagram it would have been a great success.

(Sorry, Knotwilg.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm29 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . 2 . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You mentioned having problems with such floaters before. Perhaps you should have sacrificed them. In this diagram, having gotten the passive Black response, White can easily sacrifice the "floater".

There must be a point where I would stop building up my bottom left and start focusing on the centre.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm23 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . , . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The problem with the Black moyo started before it was built. Instead of pushing from behind, this keima would have strengthened White and left a possible play at "a" if Black tried to build up something to the right.

It seems to me that the center will wait, and that the left side is the exciting area, with plays like the invasions at the "b" points or the jump to "c" on the frontier of frameworks.

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:52 am

Uberdude wrote: So how to stop black getting those pairs of stones on the board? Don't play the white ones: stop pushing mutual walls if their wall is better than yours!

Many thanks. Yes that is very enlightening. Pushing from behind is something I do a lot. There is a chapter in Kageyama about this "struggle to get ahead". I kind of glazed over about half way through it because it didn't feel that important. I think it is time to revisit it. I need to learn some strategies to deal with this.

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:57 am

Bill Spight wrote:
The problem with the Black moyo started before it was built. Instead of pushing from behind, this keima would have strengthened White and left a possible play at "a" if Black tried to build up something to the right.

It seems to me that the center will wait, and that the left side is the exciting area, with plays like the invasions at the "b" points or the jump to "c" on the frontier of frameworks.

So this move essentially threatens two attacks?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm23 $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . , . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm23 $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . , . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:49 pm

Just finished a very interesting game. I started with 21 handicap stones! Really it should have been easy. I practically owned the entire board at the start. However my opponent managed to lead me around like a poodle! I did manage to win, but only just.

I am sure there are a lot of moves that he made that I don't fully understand, but it has been a very insightful game to play and study. I will be going over this game several times.

It was played on the Dragon Go Server over about 4 months. I was 26kyu at the start and 16kyu by the end.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:31 pm

For a 1d to give 21 stones to anyone is pretty confident. If you then lose the game by 22 pts as White, I don't see the point.

As for yourself:

+ you seem to understand Ko rather well
+ you regretted his big group to be alive, which is a major insight

if you see things like that, again, I wouldn't give you 21 stones even if the bet were 100 dollars against 1.

What to learn from this game:

- keep the opponent separated; there is no way White can win if you keep him separated, which you did quite well actually
- hane against the contact play in handicap games; you have the strength, any crosscut is a problem for the opponent
- learn some basic life & death, such as the L-group

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:14 am

Knotwilg wrote: What to learn from this game:

- keep the opponent separated; there is no way White can win if you keep him separated, which you did quite well actually
- hane against the contact play in handicap games; you have the strength, any crosscut is a problem for the opponent
- learn some basic life & death, such as the L-group

Thank you. I hadn't thought much about hane in regards to the strength of surrounding stones, but it makes perfect sense.

I do really need to learn more life and death. Even though I do some problems from time to time, the underlying theory and thought process still hasn't sunk in. I just find myself flailing in the dark and hoping that my stones will work.

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:38 am

Reflecting on my progress, I think I am starting to plateau.

I have made it to 13k on DGS and the games are starting to get really tough. I suspect I am going to lose pretty much all my current games. The standard of my opponents is really high.

On live servers, KGS and Pandanet I am struggling even more. I am 15k on KGS and 16k on Pandanet. I get completely wiped out just about every game - unless my opponent makes a lot of serious mistakes. Reviewing the games shows that I am making a lot of silly errors. Primarily not reading out the moves correctly and getting sucked into small battles without considering the whole board. I think my reliance on DGS and being able to spend a long time playing through variations is really starting to hinder me.

So I need to change my approach.

From now on, when playing on DGS I will not allow myself to download the sgf and play through variations. I will force myself to read through in my head.

I need to focus more on study rather than playing games. Time to really dig into some books. I think to help me work through the books I need to actually pull out a goban and start putting the diagrams on so I can really visualise each move properly and understand the reasoning behind each move.

Problems. I need to do more problems. I have ordered Graded Go Problems for beginners vol 2 and 3. On a whim, I also bought the kindle version of Gateway to all Marvels. Looking at it, this book is way above my level! I don't think I will be able to solve any of the problems myself, but it has been useful to play through the solutions on the goban to try to understand why each move was made. I learned a lot just from the first problem.

Hopefully this will help me push through my current barriers and work out what this game is all about!

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:47 am

mongus wrote:Reflecting on my progress, I think I am starting to plateau.

Wait until you have been playing for two years before you start to talk about plateaus.

For the first year you shouldn't even think about having a rank at all.

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:35 am

Bill Spight wrote:
mongus wrote:Reflecting on my progress, I think I am starting to plateau.
Wait until you have been playing for two years before you start to talk about plateaus. For the first year you shouldn't even think about having a rank at all.

I haven't got time for patience!

Although it would be nice to get to SDK within a year, I don't think it is so much about rank as it is reducing that frustrating feeling of reviewing a brutal loss and realising I could have played so much better.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:12 am

mongus wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
mongus wrote:Reflecting on my progress, I think I am starting to plateau.
Wait until you have been playing for two years before you start to talk about plateaus. For the first year you shouldn't even think about having a rank at all.
I haven't got time for patience!

Although it would be nice to get to SDK within a year, I don't think it is so much about rank as it is reducing that frustrating feeling of reviewing a brutal loss and realising I could have played so much better.

Well, if you know that you could have done better, you have learned something. Maybe a lot.

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:18 pm

On live servers, KGS and Pandanet I am struggling even more. I am 15k on KGS and 16k on Pandanet. I get completely wiped out just about every game - unless my opponent makes a lot of serious mistakes.

Ah, but your opponents do make a lot of serious mistakes.

I'm a lowly 7k KGS, and I make a lot of serious mistakes. If the dan players here are honest, they'll say they make a lot of serious mistakes too. Professionals would probably say it, too.

The key is to figure out which moves are the mistakes and how to profit from them.

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:34 pm

Bill Spight wrote: Well, if you know that you could have done better, you have learned something. Maybe a lot.

Maybe, I think this may be where I am at, I don't seem to be learning from my mistakes so much any more. A little while ago I would make a mistake once or twice and then when it came around again I would recognise it and do something better. This doesn't happen so much any more. Every game I see me doing the same wrong things over and over. I tell myself not to make the same mistake again, but then my opponent does something unexpected and I fall into the same bad habits again.

So this is why I think I need to start making my practice more deliberate, so I can start to ingrain some good habits and start doing the correct things more instinctively.

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:36 pm

Fedya wrote: The key is to figure out which moves are the mistakes and how to profit from them.

Yes. I need to train myself how to do exactly this!

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:13 pm

I was going to post a game to demonstrate how badly I have been playing lately, but sods law I ended up winning. However, I seemed to get off to a pretty good start and did build up a pretty large Moyo. I probably should have won by a lot more than I should have. My opponent had an excellent mid game.

Life In 19x19

The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make