daal's board

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Uberdude
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Re: daal's board

Post by Uberdude »

daal wrote:Here is Cho's reasoning:
Cho wrote:Cho's comment is that the first variation betrays a weak attitude. White is forced to reply to black's moves, and still has a possible invasion to deal with. In the second variation, Cho says white's lower side is ruined, but he is reconciled to this as black has had to struggle for life.
Although I don't doubt the truth of this, I also don't understand the reasoning.


Fedya wrote:I too figured ez4u was trying to suggest figure 2 is better than figure 1, and left it as en exercise for the reader to figure out why. (I still don't see why.)

I think that's understandable, that reasoning given is rather facile. In my post I listed a half dozen factors I looked at when evaluating the position and to make a judgement I need to balance all these pros and cons with appropriate weights. This is a largely conscious process, trained and informed by my experience. I wonder if Cho goes through a similar one when he considers those positions, or it's more of a snap judgement based on his highly trained intuition / neural networks. I'm sure he could list those factors (and other subtleties of the position I omitted, e.g. ko threats) if asked, but is this part of his normal decision making process?

If it's hard to judge a position, how about trying to imagine the continuation to get an easier to judge later position (like a Monte-Carlo bot ;-) ). Let's say black invades next in figure 1, what might happen?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . X . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . . , . . . X . , O . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . 1 . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


P.S. The takeaway of this shouldn't be "if my opponent has to struggle for life the result is good for me": it's easy to imagine a counter-example in which you have a really big moyo/almost-territory of say 60 points whilst your opponent has solid positions outside, if it all becomes yours you win by 10, opponent invades deeply, runs around, thrashes for life and eventually makes life leaving you with only 10 points. You now lose by 40 even though he struggled.
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Bill Spight
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Re: daal's board

Post by Bill Spight »

Fedya wrote:OK, It's Cho who says the second one is better, and pretty much leaves it as an exercise for the reader.

It's like Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go, which I find as Kageyama generally saying, "Do things this way... except when you shouldn't." Oh, and you have to figure out when you shouldn't. Good luck.


Well, there are a lot of things that are that way, and humans are pretty good at default reasoning. :)

There are a lot of exceptions to go proverbs and "rules", and there are even more exceptions in bridge, perhaps because of the hidden information in bridge. Now, in bridge, if you are playing a trump contract there is a trump suit, and a small trump played to a trick by a player who cannot follow suit (play a card of the suit led) can beat even the ace (the highest card) of the suit played. So one of the first things that beginners are taught is to draw trumps right away when they are trying to make a trump contract; i.e., to play trumps until the opponents have none left. However, there are many exceptions to that rule. So intermediate players are told to draw trumps, except when you shouldn't, and are taught some of the exceptions. At the pro level, one of the first things that a pro will think about in a trump contract is not drawing trumps. Alan Truscott, long time bridge editor of the New York Times, once did an informal poll among top bridge players about drawing trumps and found that, indeed, they try to avoid drawing trumps. He asked them how often they drew trumps right away, and the answers were around 50% of the time. However, looking at tournament hand records, Truscott found that the top players actually drew trumps right away 90% of the time. ;) So the advice to intermediates is good, draw trumps except when you shouldn't. :)

In go as well, intermediate players (SDKs) should follow the proverbs except when they shouldn't. ;) (I mean real proverbs, not those made up by kyu players. :evil: ) If you believe that the current situation is exceptional, go with your judgement. Otherwise, follow the proverbs. If in doubt, follow the proverbs. If you are wrong, let your opponent prove it. :)
Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill Spight
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Re: daal's board

Post by Bill Spight »

One thing I wonder about is why we are not considering this position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . X . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . O . . . , . . . X . , O . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It seems less passive to me than the one where White pulls back to the hane.

I admit that I am not confident that I would play the descent in a real game. When I was learning go I was taught that the purpose of the descent was to attack the Black group on the left side. But Black is pretty strong there. OTOH, the block at D-03 does not really protect against the invasion at H-03. So maybe the question comes down to whether the descent gains more on the left side than the block does on the bottom side. And maybe a good guide is Don't get pushed around unless you should. ;)
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Knotwilg
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Re: daal's board

Post by Knotwilg »

Bill Spight wrote:One thing I wonder about is why we are not considering this position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . X . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . O . . . , . . . X . , O . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It seems less passive to me than the one where White pulls back to the hane.

I admit that I am not confident that I would play the descent in a real game. When I was learning go I was taught that the purpose of the descent was to attack the Black group on the left side. But Black is pretty strong there. OTOH, the block at D-03 does not really protect against the invasion at H-03. So maybe the question comes down to whether the descent gains more on the left side than the block does on the bottom side. And maybe a good guide is Don't get pushed around unless you should. ;)


Thank you Bill! This is the (old fashioned) variation I had in mind when posting my above analysis, exactly following the reasoning you gave here.
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Re: daal's board

Post by Bill Spight »

Knotwilg wrote:This is the (old fashioned) variation I had in mind when posting my above analysis, exactly following the reasoning you gave here.


Old fashioned indeed! It appears in what may be oldest game record still in existence.



Go to move 30. :)
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daal
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Re: daal's board

Post by daal »

Uberdude wrote:
If it's hard to judge a position, how about trying to imagine the continuation to get an easier to judge later position (like a Monte-Carlo bot ;-) ). Let's say black invades next in figure 1, what might happen?

The possibility of that :b7: invasion is one of the reasons Cho gives for :w2: being a weak response. Here is the diagram with the move numbers (thanks for the diagrams, ez4u :))

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . X . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 O . O . . . , . . . X . , O . . |
$$ | . 6 1 2 . . . 7 . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Uberdude wrote:- the descent opens up black's left side territory, in this game the group is still essentially alive so it's not so much about making it weaker, but in other situations attacking that group later can be very important (though I have a tiny niggling feeling about if it is actually 100% alive if white later gets strong in the centre and then plays 2-10 on left). About 5 points difference here


Cho also points out that this sequence, in particular the descent of :w2: , weakens black's left side. Here are the move numbers...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . X . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 O . . , . . . X . , O . . |
$$ | . . 1 8 3 5 6 . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . 7 . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . X . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O 4 . . , . . . X . , O . . |
$$ | . 2 X O X X O 3 . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X 1 . X . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Cho also envisons a continuation which would also weaken black's bottom right, but that was really beyond my reading. The triangled stone is :w10:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . X . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . Q . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . 2 . 9 . X . , O . . |
$$ | . O X O X X O X 1 O 8 X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . 4 O X X . X . 7 5 6 . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Bill Spight wrote:One thing I wonder about is why we are not considering this position.


Speaking for myself, I wouldn't have come up with it. I just figured out the move sequence (I think), and even with stones on the board, it wasn't immediately apparent to me that it worked. Now that I see it though, :w4: and :w6: are cool moves. Although the possibility of the invasion still remains, there is no clamp anymore, and the corner is much more secure.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . O . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . X . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 T 7 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 4 5 O . O . . . , . . . X . , O . . |
$$ | . 6 1 2 . . . . . O . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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daal
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Re: daal's board

Post by daal »

I won a game today and managed to show an inkling of fighting spirit...

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Re: daal's board

Post by daal »

Played another game and won, but only due to a blunder by my opponent. I think I put up a good fight, but it wouldn't have been enough hadn't my three shiny black stones looked so appealing...

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Re: daal's board

Post by daal »

The only thing missing from this SGF is the fact that after the game I had a 3k rating on my main account. :rambo: Nice pre-holiday present to myself :) Comments welcome!

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Re: daal's board

Post by bayu »

Congrats!

Only a few remarks:
:b17: I don't think that this is Dan-repertoire: empty triangle, not helping your cause a lot, and kind of thank you. I don't know what's best here. I'd think of leaning with d6 and then jumping into l4. But that's probably not Dan-repertoire neither.

:b33: I like your way of thinking. I am sure your opponent didn't see what hit him.

:b59: I don't think that you are in position to play these ataris. Table shape at g12 sets up a splitting attack.

:b79: Forcing the white group through the gap towards the top right is a bad strategy for you as both your adjacent groups will come under fire. You basically force him into a splitting attack against you. I'd try with k9.

:w82: I'd call this a bluff. Why didn't you take? Black connects its groups. Is it too small?
If something sank it might be a treasure. And 2kyu advice is not necessarily Dan repertoire..
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Post by EdLee »

Hi daal,

After :b7:, W should help his approach stone: K3, K4, etc. is natural.
Since W tenuki'd, it's nice for B to counter pincer -- K4, etc. is nice.
The game move :b9: lets W gets a nice dual-purpose :w10: .

:b17: D6 is a local vital point.
( :w16: - :b17: @ D6 ) is related to the exchange ( :w12: - :b13: ).

:b21: How do you feel about F7.

:b27: How do you feel about H5.

:b29: How do you feel about E5.

:b33: Notice W's H5 liberty (re: :b27: ).

:b37: Before you tenuki, you may want to milk everything out of the :b35: stones first.
Example: K2 or J2. At least the atari K6.
If you atari K6 now, W has no choice but connect L5.
Later, if W gets K2 first, or K6 himself,
then you won't get the ( K6 atari - L5 ) exchange.
( Later, the K6 atari could be purely gote and W may ignore it. )

:b41: - :w42: Maybe just atari.

:b49: How do you feel about D11 atari.

:b61: How do you feel about E13 connect.

:b65: How do you feel about L9.

:b85: How do you feel about atari-push L8.

:b87: How do you feel about atari-push L8.

( skipping... )

:black: 153 B19.
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