The mistakes I make

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dfan
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by dfan »

mongus wrote:
dfan wrote: By the way, you should still try to answer Uberdude's question. (I had accidentally told you the answer in a comment I made at the same time as his question, but I have deleted my spoiler.)
I came up with a couple of possibilities above. Are there other options?
Oh, so you did! I missed it. I was thinking of this, which is easier to find in a game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X O O O 1 . . |
$$ . X . X O 2 . . . |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
But your move works too.
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mongus
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by mongus »

Couldn't White ensure survival with the following :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X O O O 1 2 . |
$$ . X . X O 3 . . . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Then :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . 2 X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 1 . 3 |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I think that shape is alive?
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dfan
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by dfan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X O O O 1 2 . |
$$ . X . X O . 3 . . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Fedya
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by Fedya »

mongus wrote:Couldn't White ensure survival with the following :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X O O O 1 2 . |
$$ . X . X O 3 . . . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Then :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . 2 X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 1 . 3 |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I think that shape is alive?
Then :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 1 2 . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I like Dfan's variation better.
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Bill Spight
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by Bill Spight »

Fedya wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 1 2 . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I like Dfan's variation better.
Oh, yours looks like fun, though. :D
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . 1 . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Just to cross the eyes and dot the teas. What now?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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mongus
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by mongus »

Ah yes. Thanks. I guess life would only be assured if you were playing against me!


Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . 1 . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Just to cross the eyes and dot the teas. What now?

Hmm...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . O 4 |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 2 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
or
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . O 4 |
$$ . . . X X O O 1 . |
$$ . . . . X X X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
or
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . O . |
$$ . . . X X O O . 1 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Either way, white is dead.
Last edited by mongus on Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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dfan
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by dfan »

mongus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . O 4 |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 2 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Does White have an alternative on move 3?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . O . |
$$ . . . X X O O . 1 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
and now what does White play?
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mongus
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by mongus »

Ah
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 3 O . |
$$ . . . X X O O . 1 |
$$ . . . . X X X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X 4 |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White lives.
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ez4u
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by ez4u »

In Bill's diagram it is Black to play not White. If Black plays tenuki, White lives...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 3 O . |
$$ . . . X X O O . 1 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 1 O 3 |
$$ . . . X X O O 5 2 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Dave Sigaty
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- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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mongus
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by mongus »

Although here, I think White is still dead :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 3 O 4 |
$$ . . . X X O O . 2 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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ez4u
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by ez4u »

mongus wrote:Although here, I think White is still dead :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 3 O 4 |
$$ . . . X X O O . 2 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
True if White answers 2 with 3, however, ...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . O 3 |
$$ . . . X X O O . 2 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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dfan
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by dfan »

mongus wrote:Although here, I think White is still dead :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 3 O 4 |
$$ . . . X X O O . 2 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Yup. Does White have yet another alternative for move 3?
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mongus
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by mongus »

So
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 4 O 3 |
$$ . . . X X O O 5 2 |
$$ . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
or
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X . O 3 |
$$ . . . X X O O 4 2 |
$$ . . . . X X X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
then :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 7 O 3 |
$$ . . . X X O O 6 . |
$$ . . . . X X X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Luckily :b6: can be ignored duo to the extra liberty at T14. If that was filled in :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . X . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . X 8 O 3 |
$$ . . . X X O O 6 7 |
$$ . . . . X X X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
White would be dead.
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dfan
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by dfan »

Nicely done! I wouldn't say " :b6: can be ignored" (to me that implies White could tenuki) but instead say " :b6: doesn't work". You are absolutely correct about the extra liberty being necessary, and the :b6: trick to make a false eye comes up all the time in tsumego (and occasionally in actual games as well :)).
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