#264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hi Bill :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------
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$$ , . . . W . , X . . |
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$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
( Or others knowledgeable about the historical context... )

Anyone happens to know if :wc: had any precedence before Go Seigen ?
Or whether Go was the first ( or one of the first ) to research on it ?
Just curious. Thanks.
( For beginners ):
Fuzzy direction is also possible for :w6: :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
W should have multiple, equally good options for :w6: ...
until AlphaGo says otherwise. :)
Bill Spight
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Re:

Post by Bill Spight »

EdLee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ , . . . W . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
( Or others knowledgeable about the historical context... )

Anyone happens to know if :wc: had any precedence before Go Seigen ?
Or whether Go was the first ( or one of the first ) to research on it ?
Just curious. Thanks.

Go Seigen is my source. :)


EdLee wrote:( For beginners ):
Fuzzy direction is also possible for :w6: :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
W should have multiple, equally good options for :w6: ...
until AlphaGo says otherwise. :)


For beginners to intermediates:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: is a natural and very good extension from the Black enclosure. If White approaches with :w2:, :b3: makes an ideal framework. OC, any White move in Ed's shaded area will prevent that extension. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


On the theory that the opponent's good move is my good move, White can extend to :w1:. Now if Black approaches with :b2: White can jump to :w3:. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc A space too far?
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


There is also something to be said for the closer approach to :w1:. The problem is, it leaves room for Black to play :b2: and make a base. After the kick, :w5:, Black's base is a little bit overcrowded, but that is small compensation for :w1: versus "b". What saves :w1: is that after :w3: White threatens "a". :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc A space too far!
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . B , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


If Black has the high enclosure, :b1: is definitely inferior.
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Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Post by TegaiS »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


You can't lose the game by making a shimari in the early opening. I like this direction because it makes the left less interesting and black obviously want to play at the left. a and b are in the same direction as :w6: . Can't say if they are better or worse than the move in the game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Bill Spight
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Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
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$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now the bottom side is the hottest. My prediction. :)

Edit: Unhidden.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Post by Kirby »

Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . 6 . , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I might consider :w6: as a probe. It also lowers the temperature of both the left and top sides.


@Bill:
I'm trying to understand why lowering the temperature on the left and top sides is desirable for white.

My interpretation is that your comment indicates that :w6:, above, reduces black's potential on the top and on the left. Is this interpretation correct?

If so, it's not clear to me why reducing the temperature is more desirable than simply playing in an area of high temperature. For example, if the right side has high temperature, I think it means that it'd be valuable to play in that area. Lowering the overall temperature means that the opponent cannot get a move with such a high temperature, but why not play in the area of high temperature yourself?

My question is more abstract than practical in this case. I like your move, Bill. But I'm trying to grasp the commentary.
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Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . 6 . , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I might consider :w6: as a probe. It also lowers the temperature of both the left {sic. I meant right. Bill} and top sides.


@Bill:
I'm trying to understand why lowering the temperature on the left and top sides is desirable for white.

My interpretation is that your comment indicates that :w6:, above, reduces black's potential on the top and on the left. Is this interpretation correct?

If so, it's not clear to me why reducing the temperature is more desirable than simply playing in an area of high temperature. For example, if the right side has high temperature, I think it means that it'd be valuable to play in that area. Lowering the overall temperature means that the opponent cannot get a move with such a high temperature, but why not play in the area of high temperature yourself?

My question is more abstract than practical in this case. I like your move, Bill. But I'm trying to grasp the commentary.


First, I meant the right side. I have corrected that. Thanks. :)

Second, it is Go Seigen's idea, not mine. I cannot claim to understand it fully.

Third, there may be some advantage to affecting both sides, not just one. But if it is just one point better than playing on the right side, that is significant at the pro level.

( Bill, I added the following /Hide tag. -- Ed :) )
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Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Post by Kirby »

First, I meant the right side. I have corrected that. Thanks. :)

Second, it is Go Seigen's idea, not mine. I cannot claim to understand it fully.

Third, there may be some advantage to affecting both sides, not just one. But if it is just one point better than playing on the right side, that is significant at the pro level.


Thanks, Bill. It makes sense to me that there may be some value to reducing both the top and the right. Thinking about it more, it seems difficult to put a generalized rule out there for reducing temperature vs. playing in an area of high temperature.

Even considering this example, it seems like you'd need to know the value of playing in various areas all around the board.

For example, in attempt to abstractly quantify things, let's say that a play on the right side is hypothetically 20 (of some unit :-p) and a play on the top is 15. Then the proposed :w6: reduces the top and right by some amount (I don't know how much). Again hypothetically, let's say that :w6: reduces the temperature such that the top becomes 7 and the right becomes 10. Actually playing :w6: is worth some amount - hypothetically, let's say it's worth 3.

To determine if this is a good strategy, you'd need to know the temperature values of the rest of the board, too, to see if you'd end up with more than the opponent. And that's with all of these hypothetical metrics I've put out there.

Seems pretty difficult to quantify...

I guess the best I can take away from this is that a move like :w6:, which may not seem worth a lot locally itself, could have value in reducing temperature in other areas of the board.

It's confusing to me to know when this generally applies, but maybe considering it as an option is good enough.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

You can't lose the game by making a shimari in the early opening.
Until AlphaGo says otherwise. :)
Seems pretty difficult to quantify...
Soon.

When the wrist watch can give 2+ stones to top pros,
we'll have a numerical evaluation of said opening board.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@Obs:
OK, now it gets interesting.

The previous moves were mostly played on theoretical grounds - by me, at least, and probably by my honorable opponent. I've been getting by with what I can remember out of Yang's 'Fundamentals of Go'. Now, tactical considerations begin to arise. So I have to look at a bunch of possibilities.

There are 8 - err...make that 9 - reasonable plays. The right side corners are spoken for. The two left side corners have possibilities. There are two approaches to his stone and two extensions from mine. That is four.

Then there are the midpoints on the sides: four more possibilities.

Lastly, there is tengen. ( I admit to being a bit partial toward this since it worked so well for me in my last Malkovich game against MW. )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a a . . e . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . a . . . e . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . f f . . . . . i . . . . . g g . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . h . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . d d . . h . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To evaluate those first eight moves, I'm going to compare importance of the sides. To do that, let us note the direction of play for the two shimaris. Mine faces southward, and it likes the right side; his faces westward and it likes the lower side.

1) The top side is of modest importance. It is a only a moderately good place to extend for him, as I can launch invasions with help from my solid P17 stone. It is the wrong direction for me, as my shimari faces southward. It is slightly sente for me. It is gote for him.

2) The left side is of slightly greater importance. It is a good extension from both of our hoshi stones. Either play there is sort of sente to continue with an approach against the opponent's stone.

3) The right side is a good territorial extension for me, not so much for him. It is gote for both of us.

4) The lower side is a good extension for me, and a very good extension for him. Mine is gote, his would be sente. The fact that it is so good for him makes this the most important side.

So 'd' and 'h' ( and 'i' ) are are on the short list of preferred moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . i . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . h . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . d d . . h . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I think that I can remove tengen from the list. It worked against MW because it conflicted directly with his style. ( On this board, he would have played 6 against one of my corners. ) My current opponent seems a bit more conventional, so I need not go overboard to get influence.

So we are down to 'd' and 'h'. Let's see what happens with each of them.

Move 'd': If I make a shimari with 1, then the lower side is less important for him, and an extension along the left side starts looking good for me. So he would probably play on the left.

One way is like this, in which we have a very conservative 4-shimari game, with a 4-party direction of play spiral:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {AR D7 D11}
$$ {AR Q13 Q9}
$$ {AR N4 J4}
$$ {AR H16 M16}[/go]


At this point, tengen does start to look good, as it seems to be tedomari.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm quite happy with this board. My stones are all working well. I have the only really secure territory, and the tengen stone does double duty opposing white's hoshi influence in two directions.

A more enterprising play by white on the left would be like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . x . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . y . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . z . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I now can play at 'x' or 'z' which are the wrong direction for both of my shimaris. Or I can play 'y' which is the right direction, but then he gets a double wing formation with 'x'.
Overall, this feels clumsy. Black's game is not necessarily bad, but it does not flow. FWIW, white's game seems no better.


Move 'i': If I play 1, his best reply seems to be 2, taking away the possibility of me making a double wing. It probably continues something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . a a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Moves'a' and 'b' look like miai. I should get a decent corner with extensions from one of them.

Tiebreaker: I'm going with 'i'. Getting an even result is too easy for him with 'd'.
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Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b3: and :w4: are standard extensions.
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Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Post by TegaiS »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That is my first instinct when I see :b3: and :b7: formation and here I don't see any reason to discard it.
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Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@Observers:
I didn't think that he could do that with :b7: nearby. It seems a bit of an overplay.
I'm too tired to make a play tonight. But I think that tomorrow I shall pincer him.
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Post by EdLee »

I didn't think that he could do that with :b7: nearby. It seems a bit of an overplay.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Pro shape
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . a . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------------[/go]
Database: 4,876 pro games with this local shape ;
the most popular local follow-up is (a), 1-space jump ( 59% -- 3,397 pro games ).

As W said, :w8: is a natural first feeling.
Of course, Bill's mid-star-point area extension is also possible.

But to question :w8: ... either there's some confusion,
or maybe it's a slight case of follow-itis --
( not following the opponent, but being misled by some theory ) -- or both.
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Re:

Post by Bill Spight »

EdLee wrote:
I didn't think that he could do that with :b7: nearby. It seems a bit of an overplay.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Pro shape
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . a . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------------[/go]
Database: 4,876 pro games with this local shape ;
the most popular local follow-up is (a), 1-space jump ( 59% -- 3,397 pro games ).

As W said, :w8: is a natural first feeling.
Of course, Bill's mid-star-point area extension is also possible.


Sorry, I only put that play in the diagram to show that the extensions on the top and right sides were the standard ones. Joaz's earlier diagrams had Black extending only to K-17 instead of J-17. My choice for :w8: would be the same as in the game. :)
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Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . 9 . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I wanted to pincer, but when I looked at all the variations, I found the double approach to be problematic. His shimari kept making :b7: look weak:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . 0 . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . B . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If a white stone at F6 is a problem for me, then one of mine there should be an asset.

The pincer can wait a move.

If he wants to slide under, we can play a common joseki, except this time black will finish with sente because :b7: is already in place:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 . 3 . 9 . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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