When are you not a "beginner"?

[TofuPython]

What rank, subjectively, of course, do you consider breaking out of the "beginner" status?

[Uberdude]

About 20 kyu. Some people say things like a dan player is still a beginner (shodan can be translayed as "first step") or even a pro*, because there are still so many things they don't know/understand, but frankly I find such statements a load of false-modest/self-deprecating nonsense.

* iirc Fujisawa Shuko (9p, Honorary Kisei) said something like he only knows 10% of Go, and then later revised that number down. Whilst that might be true (and maybe AlphaGo can help us now) that doesn't make him a beginner (I don't know if he ever expressed that sentiment).

[DrStraw]

8 dan?

Seriously, we are all beginners at some level. But I would say you are no longer a beginner when you can give a completely new player (say 10 games or fewer) a 9 stone handicap and win. Maybe around 15-20 kyu.

[Gotraskhalana]

What rank, subjectively, of course, do you consider breaking out of the "beginner" status?

I felt that I was not a beginner anymore the first time I played a 19x19-game and all of my groups survived.

[Kirby]

When you know how to properly finish and score the game?

[gowan]

I agree with Kirby, but I would say that a person is not a beginner when he/she can play complete games and score them without having to consult rules. I would not pooh-pooh the idea that we are all beginners in some serious sense. As a more quantified measure, how about saying one is not a beginner when one can win with a nine stone handi against a pro?

[skydyr]

I agree with Kirby, but I would say that a person is not a beginner when he/she can play complete games and score them without having to consult rules. I would not pooh-pooh the idea that we are all beginners in some serious sense. As a more quantified measure, how about saying one is not a beginner when one can win with a nine stone handi against a pro?

That's getting pretty close to shodan there, which I think we can agree is not really considered anywhere close to a beginner, at least in the west.

[bayu]

When the regulars at the club remember your name.

Or when you happen to explain something to a beginner. At the latest when you happen to play a handycap game with white.

Also, when you post here, you can check right under your name whether you are a beginner or not

[Carcosa]

I guess I'm not a beginner anymore,
came very close to winning against a 10kyu+ with 9 stone handicap if it weren't for one bad move (plus we were using a clock and I was in time trouble 45 minutes, then 25 moves in 10 minutes, Canadian byo-yomi). I was dominating the game in the beginning and into the middle a bit but towards the late middle/ end with time trouble I had to make fast moves and blundered and lost a large group on the bottom, along with significant territory in a ko where I ignored a ko threat and would have lost only one stone. I still had time to save the large group after ignoring the ko threat, but on white's next move after the first ko threat, he killed my large group and I didn't even see it (that has happened in a couple games I played where I didn't see the bigger picture of a large group of mine about to die). If I had time to think I could have won the game I think (score was 30.5 white). I play very slowly as I do in chess. (The game did take about 2 hours)

Also, I have been teaching the game to my family and friends, and will be playing white in a 4 stone handicap game against my cousin this Saturday, who has only played 3 games but started learning at the same time I did ( I taught him). I am pretty sure I have played over 20 games so far as well as having read the 1st 2 books of Janice Kim, " Learn to Play Go," and making my way into the 3rd volume as well as "Go for Beginners" by Kaoru Iwamoto. I have been doing Go problems on SmartGo on my ipad whenever I get the chance. I have also watched some professional games both live (2 Meijin games and an Oza game) and on SmartGo (looking over some Shusaku games).

Once a week I have been attending the Empty Sky Go Club here in Rochester NY at RIT, and they have been teaching me there as well as playing games there.

I have been playing for about a month, and based on my last game described above, my friend thinks I might be around 20kyu.

Edit:
Then again maybe you are a beginner until you get your first 100 games in like people have been telling me to do...

[Ulquiorra]

I wonder if it is rank based at all. If you play 10000 games over the course of 100 years but can't get passed 10 kyuu, are you still a beginner? Or conversely, someone on their first day that doesn't know what a kou is but plays 8 dan moves...

[emeraldemon]

In my mind the word "beginner" is a perfectly ordinary English word. When you begin something, you are a beginner. Easy.

Most words don't have specific cutoffs for inclusion. You can happily understand "I'm hungry" or "green shirt" without needing an exact barrier between hungry and not hungry, or green and blue. If I see "a beginner's guide to Go" I interpret it the same as I would "a beginner's guide to photography", and I don't feel like I'm missing any nuance of meaning.

I feel like I have seen many long threads on this forum trying pin exact parameters on words like "weak group" or "fundamentals" or "wall" or "reading". I don't predict success.

[Gotraskhalana]

I don't predict success.

Can you explain what you mean with "success"?

[EdLee]

He refers to continuum vs. discrete.

[emeraldemon]

Success at finding the end of beginner.

By the way TofuPython, you are no longer a beginner. You have graduated to Double-digit kyu (ddk) player

[pookpooi]

When you know how to properly finish and score the game?

Get this idea and extend to my version of 'not a beginner' definition: Those who know and follow all go rules perfectly to the point that they can be a judge in tournament match.

Win/Loss result really doesn't matter as long as you nailed all rules right, you're not a beginner anymore.