What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

[Fedya]

Another thing that I've always thought is a weakness of mine is dealing with unorthodox moves, or moves that I just haven't seen before that perhaps I shouldn't think of as unorthodox since that's probably a bit arrogant. When my opponent plays something new to me, I have to try to figure out from first principles what to do, and that seems to go wrong distressingly often. In this game, my opponent pretty much did that all over the board, and while I thought early on I was doing OK, things quickly went downhill and I lost quite badly, with weak groups all over the board that, in every case, I got by not being passive.

[EdLee]

try to figure out from first principles what to do,
and that seems to go wrong distressingly often.

( emphasis added. )
A reasonable conjecture is that there are gaping holes in the acquired said principles.
Thus coming back to the title of the thread, and all the nice discussions.
( Fundamentals. )

Local shape:

This local shape happens not so often in pro games ;
and, the order is different:

$$B :w2: tenuki
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . , . a .
$$ | . . 3 1 . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B :w2: tenuki
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . , . a .
$$ | . . 3 1 . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ?[/go]

W's next local move depends on the global context.
There are examples of W(a).

[skydyr]

Next time your opponent makes a J group in gote, you need to know how to kill it and play your sente moves to set up that situation. http://senseis.xmp.net/?JGroup

At what's wrong with F6 to separate?

With the upper right, it's imperative to separate white. When black allows white to connect and get strong, black is left with two groups he can't defend with one move.

In the lower right, when white tenukies, it's time to start with the placements.

More generally, your comments seem to belie a defeatist attitude. "This is why I shouldn't X", "This is what happens when I Y" etc. Be positive! There may be specific problems that occurred, but I guarantee they're not problems with things like tenuki or playing a pincer.

On another level, if your opponent is creating lots of weak groups, just keep them separate and play solidly, and he'll fall apart eventually. Think less about being in danger, and more about putting your opponent in danger. A good go player needs to be able to smell the blood in the water like a shark, and hound a wounded group until it dies, or at least you get a few good bites.

As a separate exercise, I'd recommend taking your next few games (ideally losses) and posting them here with comments, but only with comments on what you did right, or what went well. Let other people tell you what you did wrong, and defend yourself against them because they were right by your plan.

[Fedya]

Ed:

I had Black, so I played thinking it was the right move. I wouldn't have played if I'd had White. I'm not certain whether I'd have played a pincer or not. Then again, I would probably have played in the opposite corner so that Black couldn't play a diagonal fuseki. And the bigger issue for me was figuring out a good response to .

Skydyr:

You're right that I need to study the L-group and J-group more. Surprisingly, they don't seem to come up all that often in my games, so on the rare occasions they do come up I feel like I'm trying to solve it from the beginning again.

And you're saying that should have been at Q17, I presume?

As for keeping a good attitude, I felt after I played C9 that I was doing really well. But a couple dozen moves later, I look at the board and realize things have gone wrong somewhere, and I had no idea where. At least in the previous game I posted, I knew pretty much right where I screwed up, after the cross-cut; I just had no idea what the right response was. A game like this where things go wrong in a way I don't see at all is much more frustrating. And I haven't had a game like this in a while.

Regarding a loss where I should comment on the good things I did, I may have one of those coming up soon. Over on DGS, I'm bouncing between 6k and 7k, and am at the point where there aren't many people ranked lower than me but higher on the ladder for me to challenge. So recently I challenged a 5k and am involved in an interesting game where I think the outcome is still unclear. But just for the heck of it, I also challenged a 2d. I've been trying hard and felt like I did reasonably well in the joseki, but suddenly my opponent came up with an attack I just couldn't figure out how to deal with and things turned really quickly. It's much less frustration than a sense of being impressed with my opponent's ability.

[Bill Spight]

Another thing that I've always thought is a weakness of mine is dealing with unorthodox moves, or moves that I just haven't seen before that perhaps I shouldn't think of as unorthodox since that's probably a bit arrogant. When my opponent plays something new to me, I have to try to figure out from first principles what to do, and that seems to go wrong distressingly often.

Actually, when you relied on general principles, you did rather well.

One principle (heuristic) that you violated was letting the White group you were attacking escape, instead of fencing it in.

Another principle, which you may not have been aware of, is attacking on a large scale. , besides being a non-tesuji, was small. White could have ignored it. Would you then have captured two stones?

Some comments.



Edit: Added a variation for White in the variations for . Also added a variation for , a better play, I think.

Also, when you said that somehow things had gone wrong 30 moves later, I commented that you had made a series of mistakes. That sounds harsh. I did not mean it that way. Everybody makes mistakes. I meant that you had good ideas, but your implementation was flawed. Now, there is one tesuji that you probably had not learned. But you simply let White escape. Also, you failed to make a peep, which is well withing your ability to see. The thing is, instead of wondering how to choose the right joseki, you would do better to focus on basic tactics, on tesuji, on life and death. These things are learnable, and studying them will allow you to implement your ideas better.

[skydyr]

You're right that I need to study the L-group and J-group more. Surprisingly, they don't seem to come up all that often in my games, so on the rare occasions they do come up I feel like I'm trying to solve it from the beginning again.

If you have it, James Davies' Life and Death has good sections on these groups with problems, or you can look at some of the problem collections available online for them. They come up (with variants) more often than you think. I feel that the L(+1/2), J(+1), tripod and door groups are important to know, along with 2nd and 3rd line strings and the notchers. The carpenter's square you can look into a bit, but it's fairly complicated.

And you're saying that should have been at Q17, I presume?

Divide and conquer. When white hanes later, you always have the choice of letting him connect or not, depending on which side you want, of course.

As for keeping a good attitude, I felt after I played C9 that I was doing really well. But a couple dozen moves later, I look at the board and realize things have gone wrong somewhere, and I had no idea where. At least in the previous game I posted, I knew pretty much right where I screwed up, after the cross-cut; I just had no idea what the right response was. A game like this where things go wrong in a way I don't see at all is much more frustrating. And I haven't had a game like this in a while.

It's possible I read too much into what you wrote, but I stand by the idea that it's the specifics of implementation that lead to things going wrong, and not the idea itself. Bill's comments give a good example for the left side.

Regarding a loss where I should comment on the good things I did, I may have one of those coming up soon. Over on DGS, I'm bouncing between 6k and 7k, and am at the point where there aren't many people ranked lower than me but higher on the ladder for me to challenge. So recently I challenged a 5k and am involved in an interesting game where I think the outcome is still unclear. But just for the heck of it, I also challenged a 2d. I've been trying hard and felt like I did reasonably well in the joseki, but suddenly my opponent came up with an attack I just couldn't figure out how to deal with and things turned really quickly. It's much less frustration than a sense of being impressed with my opponent's ability.

I rather like the ladders on there, because it's an easy way to get games with people who are stronger than you to see how they play, and how they pick at your weaknesses. Particularly for the 19x19 one, it's hard to maintain a position because the games are so long and people are constantly jumping up around you, but the position itself isn't very important.

[Fedya]

Bill:

The first thing I noticed from your review is on . I thought I was attacking on a large scale! The point behind that move was to try to keep White from being able to get even one eye on the side, making him try to get both eyes in the center as opposed to one eye on the side and only one in the center.

The more I think of it, attacking on a large scale is another one of those concepts I have difficulty with. Trying to attack the H12 stones didn't seem to go so well, either.

[Fedya]

As a separate exercise, I'd recommend taking your next few games (ideally losses) and posting them here with comments, but only with comments on what you did right, or what went well. Let other people tell you what you did wrong, and defend yourself against them because they were right by your plan.

Wouldn't you know it only took a few days to get a game suitable for posting? I thought I did fairly well in a whole bunch of places: the top right, the double approach in the bottom left, the invasion on the top, and reducing white in the bottom center. Every time I counted, though, I seemed behind by just a little bit. If I made a mistake, it was resigning too early, before White really did kill all those stones. And as it turned out, there was a move to save them that I didn't see until the third or fourth time I was going through the game. But I would have saved the stones in gote, and White would have had the opportunity to get the sente moves in the endgame.

[EdLee]

Hi Fedya,

I wonder if P4 direction is bigger.
( If W replies by crawling on the 3rd line and B builds up a wall there,
then your follow-up is pincer from R12 direction:
the top right is bigger potential for growth.
The game move R8 pushes W toward your top right corner, reducing some growth there. )

How about F-03?

( Hi Bill: between double approach LL star point (e.g. F3)
and double approach LR komuku... is LR bigger ? )

An extension from top right iron pillar is bigger (e.g. N17).
( After W settles with , it's not easy to attack W... for now. )

W takes the local shared vital point first.
The stone may end up misplaced after the local exchanges.

Your notes here: there's some weakness in your shape at P15:
B can be cut there ( left-over from ).

Maybe C3.

C3 seems bigger to me.
W's game move: why build a wall there ?
There's not much to gain from a wall there.

Your notes here: I agree about W's inefficient wall.
But you want to jump ASAP, instead of crawling.

Maybe D10 is more efficient to fix W's shape ( thanks to crawl ).

Locally, C3 still seems very big to me.
( Miai connect; or, simply keima to B4: hurts your bottom group less ).

Maybe L3.

[Bill Spight]

Hi Fedya,

I wonder if P4 direction is bigger.
( If W replies by crawling on the 3rd line and B builds up a wall there,
then your follow-up is pincer from R12 direction:
the top right is bigger potential for growth.
The game move R8 pushes W toward your top right corner, reducing some growth there. )

How about F-03?

[Bill Spight]

Fedya, how do you assess this position?

$$Bc Position at move 26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Position at move 26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[Fedya]

Fedya, how do you assess this position?

Black and White are even on the right. Black's position on the left is open, but that's canceled out by White's being open on the bottom. White is probably slightly ahead thanks to the top, but Black has sente and can enter into White's open moyo first.

So what you're saying is that I should have played F3 here instead of several moves later?

[Fedya]

EdLee:

I thought I played a natural extension, and chose for White which direction he'd get to extend in.

I figured in addition to reducing White I was playing at the sort of point White would want to take to reduce me.

Are you suggesting to jump to B10?

(Of course, I did eventually invade at C3, but it was probably later than I should have.)

[Bill Spight]

So what you're saying is that I should have played F3 here instead of several moves later?

Well, I would probably have played the double approach before this position, but I am interested in this position because I think that it is a good position for formulating a game plan.

Fedya, how do you assess this position?

Black and White are even on the right. Black's position on the left is open, but that's canceled out by White's being open on the bottom. White is probably slightly ahead thanks to the top, but Black has sente and can enter into White's open moyo first.

IMO, White has the lead now and Black never caught up.

Each side has weaknesses. How do you assess them?

And how do you think that White got ahead?

[EdLee]

Hi Fedya,

I thought I played a natural extension,
and chose for White which direction he'd get to extend in.

Both are facts -- no dispute there, at all.
The question is whether that's a good direction for B.
( I don't know the answer -- could be good for B. )

Corollaries: a natural extension doesn't necessarily means it's good ;
choosing a direction for your opponent also doesn't necessarily means it's good.

Compare: a common misconception:
a sente move means it's a good move
( resulting in playing any and all sente moves immediately. )

( In any case, whether is good or not didn't decide the game.
I'm just wondering. )

Only my opinion. Maybe Bill, etc. can evaluate better.

No, not to the 2nd line. Jump to the same level, 3rd line --
but I'm not sure about the timing.