I don't see the difference. In order to qualify for recognition you need to be of the nationality of the country or region that is "sponsoring" the championship. In a team sport, you're a citizen of the country. In a regional, individual sport (say tennis), you're a citizen of the country, or, if it's Europe, the "region", however Europe is defined. Look at the upcoming European Athletics championships. These are individual sports, for the most part, and the participants are citizens of specific European countries. The fact that they are competing under the umbrella of a national team means they have to be a citizen of that country.

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A good example sport, IMO, is speed skating. They've been holding European Championships for well over a hundred years. Its an individual sport and it requires you to be a passport holder in a European country in order to participate.

There's been quite some press around several Dutch speed skaters that applied for an Uzbek passport in order to be able to participate in international events. They were not good enough to qualify as Dutch skaters, because there are plenty of better skaters in the Netherlands, but since Uzbekistan has no skaters to speak of, they tried to circumvent the rules allowing only a limited number of participants per country this way.

It's not that we would not understand - we just have different opinions.

There are other sports where this is done too. There are a number of Africans who run for European countries, and one Jamaican sprinter who runs for, I think, Dubai. Unfortunately, this is allowed, but it'd be hard to not allow it, because immigration is a reality, and there are many "real" immigrants who get nationalities and compete for their welcoming countries.

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I don't really buy the argument (if you are making it - certainly others seem to be) that just because this or that sport applies restrictions on who may participate, we should do likewise.

Personally I think it would be more honourable if the European Go community avoided these relics of nationalism.

The European community (EEC) started off small and is a model of cooperation in response to centuries of warfare. Perhaps Asian countries would not wish to join - but I see these divisions mostly as protectionism and we do not seem to be immune from that either.

Then don't use the term "European champion" and you'll have no problem. You can't pretend the words don't mean what they mean.

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i didnt read every thread but i will express my opinion anyway.

if you are limiting stronger players from other country to let weak european player win some... it is like creating special oplympic for people with handycap because they can not win on regular olympic.

it will only help go community if you let stronger player enter the tornament.
i am sorry about my analogy if i offended anyone..i just want people to see what is wrong their idea.

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We have now come full circle. The topic is "Who qualifies as European". You seem to have a fixed and (if I may say say so) illiberal view that uses as examples what pertains in other sports. The topic is clearly of interest and some members here are in favour of the proposal subject to a satisfactory value for threshold.

Is Usain Bolt allowed to become US champion in 100m sprint?

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That is not the point. Everyone can and should play in the Open tournament, which is the main event of the european Go congress.

It is a good idea, though, to try to determine and award the best european player(s), and this is where the definition of "european" comes into play. It is at first sight not much different from awarding the best female player, the best male player, the best player younger than 18 years, or the best player older than 60.

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A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

No, kirkmc made the claim that all other sports require that competitors have a passport in order to participate in their European Championship. That's not a matter of opinion, but something that is true or false.

Several people then cited counter-examples, but in all cases they were beside the point (ie: open national championships, team representation). From what I can see, doing some research on the internet, kirkmc's claim is true.

Whether the example of other sports is a good argument in favor of requiring a passport is another matter, but saying that kirkmc is wrong is simply not true.

No, because he's not American. Should he change nationalities, then he would be.

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I'm not making that argument, I'm simply defending kirkmc's assertion that other sports do it that way, because it is true.



It would be very helpful to the discussion if you would stop throwing out such loaded nonsense. This has nothing to do with nationalism, nothing to do with Geert Wilders. Those are just guilt by association arguments, and they have no place in reasonable debate.



The EGF is even more open than the EEC, and has already accepted members that would not, traditionally, be considered European, such as Isreal, Armenia and Cyprus. Players from such countries are currently eligible to be European Champion, even though in most sports they would not be considered "Europeans" at all.

I think it is correct that the EGF has actually come up with a definition of a 'European' player. Without such a definition you can imagine unfair or inconsistent decisions taking place. I don't really have a problem with the rule they chose - passport holding member of an EGF country. It's consistent with WAGC or KPMC.

Of course there is a case for making it more inclusive - passport holding member of any European or EGF Country. (The EGF is not completely European.) There is a question of how you administer a 5 year or 2 year residency rule. It doesn't strike me as something that is unachievable, but it does require majority agreement from EGF members. As has been pointed out here, many nations already take this approach.

In relation to this, the EGF or Europe must maintain the value of Open events. The European Open Champion should not become a meaningless title. Do not forget that the EGF's constitution requires it to hold a European Championship.

It is my opinion and I feel entitled to state it. Your statement that it is "loaded nonsense" is just impolite - and it too has no place in reasonable debate.

Dunno, I'd say the "relics of nationalism" bit is nonsense...

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You're free to state whatever you want. That still doesn't make it helpful to the discussion.



Yes, my apologies, I should have known better.



Agree. Lets have a reasonable debate, free from impoliteness and from arguments of a dubious nature, shall we?

ok we will after all be meeting in Lunteren.

Ah, you're going to Zomergo? Good! We'll definitely meet there, then

It is fair to say that you should be European to win the European Championship.
The question was who are Europeans?

As said, the definition is someone who is living in or are originating from Europe.
So this would include anyone living in an European country.
It would maybe include students but probably not tourists.

What about someone who has been living in Europe for many years, is married to a native European,
is working here, is playing go, is participating in European tournaments, but choose not to get
a European passport?

For this reason I don't like the definition that you must have an European passport.
(btw. How often did you have to show your passport at EGC?)

I would prefer a rule of something like "Is living in an European country now and since X years".
Here X should not be more than 5. I think 3 years should be enough.
It is possible to become European citizen and get European passport after living in Europe for 3 years.

Now, what about those Europeans who moved to another area of the earth and didn't keep their
European citizenship (and European passport)? They are not living in Europe, but are originating from Europe.

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