It's something I've noticed for years but never really put much thought into until just recently. It's also mentioned briefly here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?44PointDistantH ... wPincer:v2
Personally I don't play it very much, because I don't "get" it and it kind of annoys me how easily Black gets territory with a move like 'a' or 'b'. The only advantage I see with this move really is that it's unusual, so at best it might be something that makes Black a little uncomfortable. That's really all I have. However, since it's so common in handicap games, I must be missing something here...so what's the meaning and value behind this move?
edit: I just moved this thread to Study Groups, since I think it's more appropriate there.
Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
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Kirby
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Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
My impression has always been that the move's purpose is to play something that makes black uncomfortable.
Usually black responds around 'a'. You can do another approach on the bottom, again on the other side. If black again answers calmly, you can cap the bottom stone.
It doesn't mean it's good for white, as far as I know, but sometimes it freaks black out.
Usually black responds around 'a'. You can do another approach on the bottom, again on the other side. If black again answers calmly, you can cap the bottom stone.
It doesn't mean it's good for white, as far as I know, but sometimes it freaks black out.
be immersed
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Bill Spight
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Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
In a high handicap game, every play is a losing play. 
So I can't say why the two space high approach is popular.
But it does figure in the Okigo Jizai. Here are a few games. Comments by Hattori Inshuku.
So I can't say why the two space high approach is popular. But it does figure in the Okigo Jizai. Here are a few games. Comments by Hattori Inshuku.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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dfan
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Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
When a 5d played it against me in a 4-stone game, he said it was just to keep things flexible, avoid settling shapes, and avoid joseki. The more pro-level moves Black can play automatically, the fewer moves White has to catch up.
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EdLee
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Is there an an ambiguity here...The more pro-level moves Black can play automatically, the fewer moves White has to catch up.
The more AlphaGo-class moves B plays...
(a) ...the harder it is for W ( W needs more moves to catch up ) ;
(b) ...the easier it is for W ( W needs fewer moves to catch up ) ;
(c) ...the harder it is for W ( W has fewer options available to catch up ) ;
Pretty sure the intended meaning is (a/c) ; maybe I'm reading an ambiguity where there is none.
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hyperpape
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Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
You're right that the sentence syntactically could be read either way but I think it's clear in context.
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BlindGroup
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Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
I don't have much experience playing this side of heavily handicapped games, but I was once told that an advantage of this move is that for some players it can elicit a greedy 'c'.Solomon wrote:Personally I don't play it very much, because I don't "get" it and it kind of annoys me how easily Black gets territory with a move like 'a' or 'b'.
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sorin
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Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
The way I look at this: the advantage of white's two-space approach is that it clearly separates black's stones on the immediate right and left of it in your example, and plans to attack one or the other at some point soon.
By comparison, a more traditional keima approach would give black the option to cap and kind of loosely connect his stones.
The disadvantage of the two-space approach is that it doesn't go for territory, like you mentioned, but I guess white cannot win on territory in high handicap games anyway, it needs to mount some large scale attack.
By comparison, a more traditional keima approach would give black the option to cap and kind of loosely connect his stones.
The disadvantage of the two-space approach is that it doesn't go for territory, like you mentioned, but I guess white cannot win on territory in high handicap games anyway, it needs to mount some large scale attack.
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dfan
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Re:
I meant "the harder it is for W (there are fewer exchanges during which W can gain on B, so he'll have to gain more with every exchange on average)".EdLee wrote:Is there an an ambiguity here...The more pro-level moves Black can play automatically, the fewer moves White has to catch up.
The more AlphaGo-class moves B plays...
(a) ...the harder it is for W ( W needs more moves to catch up ) ;
(b) ...the easier it is for W ( W needs fewer moves to catch up ) ;
(c) ...the harder it is for W ( W has fewer options available to catch up ) ;
Pretty sure the intended meaning is (a/c) ; maybe I'm reading an ambiguity where there is none.
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John Fairbairn
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Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Here's a pro example in an even game - see Black 15. Play immediately thereafter followed typical handicap style, but White 20 was a deviation. In a handicap game White would generally hane at N9 in order to force Black into bad shape (am empty triangle).
There was a commentary by Suzuki Tamejiro. He said the purpose of the "eye-catching" invasion at 15 was to disrupt White's sphere of influence. Another possibility was first to probe low at S5, in the expectation of eliciting S3, and then to decide on a play around 15. I found it interesting that he spoke only of a high move 15 or a very low one, with no reference to the third line.
As to White 20, Suzuki explained that White can indeed induce bad shape with the N9 hane (or even P8), but then he has no good follow-up.
The ensuing fight resulted in a classic swap of a huge territory for huge thickness. Apart from allowing the deep counter-invasion at White 80, this thickness worked in more subtle, long-distance ways than usual thickness (there just isn't any room for running fights, really), the main upshot of which was that almost the whole of the upper left quadrant turned into virgin White territory. The result was a jigo (no komi), which (combined with a lack of apparent mistakes - and each side had 9 hours) suggests the early play was even. A small boundary play mistake late on by White may have affected the outcome.
There was a commentary by Suzuki Tamejiro. He said the purpose of the "eye-catching" invasion at 15 was to disrupt White's sphere of influence. Another possibility was first to probe low at S5, in the expectation of eliciting S3, and then to decide on a play around 15. I found it interesting that he spoke only of a high move 15 or a very low one, with no reference to the third line.
As to White 20, Suzuki explained that White can indeed induce bad shape with the N9 hane (or even P8), but then he has no good follow-up.
The ensuing fight resulted in a classic swap of a huge territory for huge thickness. Apart from allowing the deep counter-invasion at White 80, this thickness worked in more subtle, long-distance ways than usual thickness (there just isn't any room for running fights, really), the main upshot of which was that almost the whole of the upper left quadrant turned into virgin White territory. The result was a jigo (no komi), which (combined with a lack of apparent mistakes - and each side had 9 hours) suggests the early play was even. A small boundary play mistake late on by White may have affected the outcome.
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Uberdude
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Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
I lost a 10 second blitz game at BIBA taking 6 stones against one of the teachers, a very strong amateur 7d. I wish I could have recorded it as it was a really interesting style which iirc used this 2-space high approach. He made a lot of loosely connected jumps (e.g. large knight's moves) and went for large scale separations and running groups.
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Solomon
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Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
So I've been playing this approach quite a bit in handicap games recently, and noticed that 'c' is by far the most common response, with the followup: After which B plays a move like 'a' or 'b'. Personally, I find this rather unsatisfying as White since it makes me pretty heavy, but I also feel likeBlindGroup wrote:I don't have much experience playing this side of heavily handicapped games, but I was once told that an advantage of this move is that for some players it can elicit a greedy 'c'.
and 
are forced (either that, or just tenuki altogether). What exactly makes 
greedy, and is there a better line of play for White?-
Kirby
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Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Hard to be satisfied after move 5 in a 9-stone handicap game, no?
be immersed
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Solomon
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Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Hah, indeed! Maybe this is why teachers in the past have said I have such a greedy play style...Kirby wrote:Hard to be satisfied after move 5 in a 9-stone handicap game, no?
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sorin
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Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Another way to look at it: it is pretty hard to win with white if you give yourself 9 stones handicapSolomon wrote:Hah, indeed! Maybe this is why teachers in the past have said I have such a greedy play style...Kirby wrote:Hard to be satisfied after move 5 in a 9-stone handicap game, no?