Kirby's Study Journal

[Kirby]

I doubt this has a more involved liberty count, because it needs to be done in preprocessing, before giving the position to the NN.

Yes, me too. My basic idea is simply that AlphaGo considers a basic liberty count at least on some level, whereas I often do not.

[Kirby]

I played another game today.

I lost against KGS 1k, giving two stones.

Here's a review:

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[WebGoBoard:0.10.8]ST[0]RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.5]HA[2]TM[1800]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]RE[B+Resign]DT[2017-05-30]PB[mongo]BR[1k]PW[Brian]WR[2d]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]AB[pd][dp]C[I played as white in this game.];W[po]WL[1786.906]C[I don't remember various 5-4 point joseki that well, but as black, it makes me nervous in a handicap game when my opponent does this.

That's why I did it here.];B[cd]BL[1788.38];W[fq]WL[1784.085];B[dn]BL[1780.788];W[jp]WL[1781.439];B[ic]BL[1776.764];W[qf]WL[1774.54];B[nd]BL[1774.904](;W[qc]WL[1748.253];B[qd]BL[1769.93];W[rd]WL[1745.952](;B[pc]BL[1768.361];W[rc]WL[1740.779];B[qq]BL[1751.099];W[oq]WL[1689.693];B[ro]BL[1745.78]C[Seemed too low.];W[qn]WL[1664.665];B[rn]BL[1743.571](;W[rm]WL[1661.271]C[Looking at josekipedia now, maybe this was too much.];B[qm]BL[1740.024];W[rl]WL[1656.867];B[or]BL[1737.273](;W[rp]WL[1607.725];B[qo]BL[1720.699](;W[qp]WL[1455.566];B[pp]BL[1710.926];W[op]WL[1449.815];B[pq]BL[1704.368];W[pn]WL[1447.199];B[rq]BL[1696.756];W[nr]WL[1439.607];B[pr]BL[1694.407];W[mq]WL[1436.624]C[I can't say white is that bad. But black has sente, so, not sure.];B[cj]BL[1689.277];W[ed]WL[1430.225];B[ec]BL[1683.762]C[Here, I'm not sure, again.](;W[dd]WL[1341.245];B[dc]BL[1680.055];W[ce]WL[1339.768];B[cc]BL[1678.686];W[fd]WL[1330.869];B[fc]BL[1668.766];W[cg]WL[1327.221];B[be]BL[1664.636];W[bf]WL[1324.313];B[de]BL[1663.016];W[ee]WL[1312.095];B[cf]BL[1661.343];W[df]WL[1310.593];B[ce]BL[1660.302](;W[dj]WL[1282.301]C[Not sure.];B[ef]BL[1654.821];W[dg]WL[1280.709];B[fe]BL[1647.837];W[ck]WL[1276.541];B[gd]BL[1644.896];W[cm]WL[1231.932](;B[pf]BL[1639.476];W[pg]WL[1227.211];B[qg]BL[1633.713];W[rf]WL[1209.243];B[qh]BL[1615.565](;W[ph]WL[1205.138];B[qi]BL[1613.92](;W[oj]WL[1198.254]C[Seems dangerous.];B[oi]BL[1594.491];W[pi]WL[1187.983];B[pj]BL[1593.131];W[qj]WL[1176.292];B[pk]BL[1591.206];W[ni]WL[1173.797];B[oh]BL[1588.981];W[og]WL[1172.414];B[nh]BL[1587.949];W[ng]WL[1169.717];B[mh]BL[1586.583];W[ri]WL[1088.858];B[qk]BL[1566.696];W[rj]WL[1086.237];B[rk]BL[1565.322]C[Here, I should probably concede a bit, and work toward reducing the top.](;W[ql]WL[954.313];B[ok]BL[1560.592];W[md]WL[864.353];B[mg]BL[1552.242];W[nf]WL[843.235];B[mf]BL[1551.001];W[ne]WL[839.359];B[me]BL[1549.892];W[nc]WL[835.983];B[od]BL[1548.46];W[rg]WL[833.79];B[mc]BL[1544.971]C[I think I need to catch up like 20 points, but moving out a weak group can't be the way to do it.](;W[ld]WL[826.416]C[Too much.];B[lc]BL[1539.518];W[kd]WL[825.043];B[kc]BL[1528.982];W[jd]WL[818.718];B[nb]BL[1525.91];W[nj]WL[813.495];B[mk]BL[1516.604];W[sk]WL[785.24];B[nk]BL[1503.024];W[lj]WL[781.929];B[mj]BL[1498.759];W[li]WL[780.358];B[mi]BL[1497.115];W[gh]WL[763.071];B[ih]BL[1491.402];W[ig]WL[759.527];B[hg]BL[1486.661];W[hh]WL[758.139];B[jh]BL[1478.402];W[ij]WL[748.036];B[gg]BL[1471.968];W[kg]WL[744.088];B[kh]BL[1449.801];W[lh]WL[730.691];B[lg]BL[1442.396];W[jg]WL[705.98];B[if]BL[1434.264];W[kf]WL[700.212];B[ke]BL[1431.906];W[je]WL[674.511];B[jf]BL[1421.067];W[le]WL[666.412];B[lf]BL[1419.052];W[ke]WL[665.5];B[ie]BL[1406.215];W[ii]WL[663.136];B[jc]BL[1404.512];W[cq]WL[594.599]C[It's difficult to make points on the outside with N9 there.];B[dq]BL[1387.828](;W[cp]WL[592.058];B[cn]BL[1382.317](;W[co]WL[581.54];B[dm]BL[1376.032];W[do]WL[577.655];B[eo]BL[1372.527];W[ep]WL[574.558];B[er]BL[1368.327](;W[fr]WL[570.731];B[cr]BL[1364.945];W[br]WL[568.601];B[bo]BL[1361.547];W[bp]WL[533.424];B[ap]BL[1355.57];W[bq]WL[531.271];B[cl]BL[1352.58];W[eq]WL[520.286];B[dk]BL[1336.734];W[bm]WL[497.026];B[bn]BL[1326.894];W[bk]WL[490.306];B[bl]BL[1325.235];W[ek]WL[487.366];B[dl]BL[1322.702];W[bj]WL[484.857];B[ci]BL[1321.026];W[bi]WL[483.51];B[ej]BL[1295.412](;W[fo]WL[474.481];B[di]BL[1291.637];W[eh]WL[466.462];B[fi]BL[1284.455];W[fh]WL[443.487];B[bh]BL[1270.741];W[bg]WL[434.939];B[ch]BL[1267.573];W[ah]WL[433.259];B[ai]BL[1242.685];W[aj]WL[429.047];B[al]BL[1240.733];W[ag]WL[427.382];B[fk]BL[1231.43];W[fl]WL[415.474];B[gk]BL[1226.648](;W[el]WL[404.189];B[gl]BL[1219.976];W[en]WL[391.937];B[gm]BL[1215.814];W[fn]WL[389.596];B[il]BL[1160.229];W[gj]WL[374.342];B[gi]BL[1146.695];W[hi]WL[344.911];B[kl]BL[1126.862];W[jl]WL[326.849];B[jm]BL[1122.334];W[hl]WL[236.215];B[hm]BL[1115.107]C[Brian [2d\]: thanks
mongo [1k\]: thx c u
])(;W[gl];B[hk];W[im]C[Just try to make points on the bottom? Hard to win now.

End of comments.]))(;W[di];B[ei];W[ch];B[fk];W[fo]C[Still behind.]))(;W[fo]C[Minor detail, but I should play here first.];B[en];W[fr]))(;W[bm];B[co];W[br](;B[dr];W[bo];B[bn];W[an]C[Maybe that's better.])(;B[bp];W[dr])))(;W[dr]C[I didn't want to hane, because I wanted him to be weak. Maybe it's better, though.];B[er];W[cr];B[eq];W[fr];B[ds];W[bo];B[bp];W[cp];B[co];W[cn];B[do];W[bq];B[bn];W[ap];B[dm];W[cl];B[fp]C[Maybe I can attack it?]))(;W[cq]C[Maybe start from 3-3.]))(;W[mg];B[lh];W[md];B[mc];W[lc];B[me];W[ld]))(;W[of];B[pe];W[pk]C[Something like this, maybe?

There's a bit less risk, and I can fight with my single Q13 stones?];B[oj]))(;W[of];B[pe]))(;B[di]C[There's still aji around here.];W[ci];B[bj]))(;W[eg]C[Heavy?];B[ff];W[ef];B[dh];W[dg];B[ie]))(;W[fc];B[dc];W[fg]C[Something like this seems light, maybe. I see this kind of stuff sometimes.

But my concern is that black can attack with J17 and naturally fix the defect around N16.]))(;W[pp]C[I considered this move.];B[qp];W[pn];B[nq])(;W[pn]C[I thought about this, too.];B[qp];W[nr];B[pr];W[nq]C[Maybe this is better than the game?]))(;W[nr]C[I'm inclined to respond, but I'm afraid of the variation.];B[op](;W[pp];B[pq];W[nq];B[pn];W[qo];B[oo]C[Seemed to be black's plan.])(;W[np];B[pq];W[nq](;B[pn];W[qo];B[oo];W[on];B[pp];W[pm];B[qp];W[ql];B[no]C[Maybe OK for me.])(;B[oo];W[pn];B[pp];W[on];B[no];W[qj]C[Maybe OK?])))(;W[pq];B[pr]))(;W[qm];B[or];W[nr];B[pr];W[nq]C[Probably white is better locally.]))(;B[re];W[rc];B[qe];W[ob];B[nb];W[oc];B[nc];W[rf];B[sd];W[pj]C[I imagined this.]))(;W[pj]C[This seems possible, too.]))

[Kirby]

Highlights...

Position 1

$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The marked move above is probably too much. That's because, after his cut, etc., the cross-cut seems effective:

$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Instead, I should probably just pull back:

$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Might be OK.

Position 2

$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not sure where to play after black's marked move. I wanted to try this:

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 X 1 . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 X 1 . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But it just seems hard to make much of the group there.

Position 3

$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again, not sure about the marked move, above. I want to avoid getting heavy, like this:

$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O 4 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O 4 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Position 4

$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . X . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . W , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . X . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . W , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the marked move above is really greedy, and is the wrong idea.

Here, I think I should consolidate the bottom and right, and just fight with one group, like this:

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . X . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X . . X . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . X . . , . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What do you think?

[Kirby]

Not studying go this week, but an idea came to me that I want to try, once I start up, again.

Comparing study to AlphaGo, I've come to the general idea that studying high level games (e.g. pro games) is a good way to improve one's policy network - when you see several examples of "good" play, it helps in identifying candidate moves during your own games.

A big question, then, is how I can more efficiently train my "value network" (assuming the same model for learning that AlphaGo uses - maybe humans don't optimally learn the same way as AlphaGo, but I'll just ignore that for now). So what does a good value network give you? The ability to accurately assess a position and identify if it's good for black or good for white. Based on past experience, I have a very biased value network - I have some amount of arrogance, and assume that, whatever the result, it's probably good for me. Okay, maybe not all of the time (e.g. when I die), but I generally have this type of optimism.

To train this, I'm thinking of taking notes while I play. Just a simple evaluation: black is ahead; or white is ahead; or it's about even. And do this at various stages of the game. I probably shouldn't use the chat window to take notes, but maybe I can do this on the side. Then after the game, I can compare my notes to some sort of review - perhaps with the help of analysis software that gives winning percentages, like CrazyStone (or Leela does this now, too, right?).

Maybe this can help me to overcome my bias. I'll try to remember this next time I play a game. Hopefully, I read this before posting another game in this thread, and I remember to try it out.

Note-to-self: Kirby, try this out before posting another game review here.

[palapiku]

It seems that humans don't have a reliable equivalent of a "value network" - direct whole-board intuition about who is ahead. Instead, even the professionals have to count each time before reaching any conclusions.

[Bill Spight]

Comparing study to AlphaGo, I've come to the general idea that studying high level games (e.g. pro games) is a good way to improve one's policy network - when you see several examples of "good" play, it helps in identifying candidate moves during your own games.

A big question, then, is how I can more efficiently train my "value network" (assuming the same model for learning that AlphaGo uses - maybe humans don't optimally learn the same way as AlphaGo, but I'll just ignore that for now). So what does a good value network give you? The ability to accurately assess a position and identify if it's good for black or good for white. Based on past experience, I have a very biased value network - I have some amount of arrogance, and assume that, whatever the result, it's probably good for me. Okay, maybe not all of the time (e.g. when I die), but I generally have this type of optimism.

To train this, I'm thinking of taking notes while I play. Just a simple evaluation: black is ahead; or white is ahead; or it's about even. And do this at various stages of the game. I probably shouldn't use the chat window to take notes, but maybe I can do this on the side. Then after the game, I can compare my notes to some sort of review - perhaps with the help of analysis software that gives winning percentages, like CrazyStone (or Leela does this now, too, right?).

Comparing notes is a good idea. However, you must remember that there is no such thing as the probability of winning the game, except 1 or 0, depending upon perfect play. All other probability estimates depend upon mistakes. So the question is, whose mistakes? My guess is that Monte Carlo estimates are no better than yours, or not much better, for players at your level. And they are probably worse than yours in the endgame. I do not know the basis of the probability estimates of AlphaGo's value network. Do they come from comparing AlphaGo vs. AlphaGo results in certain positions? Are they based upon AlphaGo's errors? In any event, it seems that some value in between the Monte Carlo estimate and the value network estimate gives the best results. Moi, I would want to know the estimates of the value network.

[Bill Spight]

It seems that humans don't have a reliable equivalent of a "value network" - direct whole-board intuition about who is ahead. Instead, even the professionals have to count each time before reaching any conclusions.

How reliable? It certainly seems that AlphaGo's is better than that of current pros. But I expect that Go Seigen's was better than that of current pros, as well.

A secret that nobody seems to talk about is that the territory estimates that pros do do not produce an estimate of who is ahead. They have the practical value of giving an estimate of how much territory you have to make elsewhere in order to win. but that is not the same thing. Players like Takemiya, who rely upon influence, have to have a good sense of its value. As an influence player myself, counting territory early in the game would just make me depressed.

[dfan]

My sense is that pros sometimes make a quick assessment by counting bad moves rather than territory; e.g., "these three White stones look kind of inefficient in retrospect but everything else on the board looks pretty reasonable at a glance, so White must be behind." I'm not sure how relevant this technique is for weaker players, though; for one thing, we're even worse at evaluating moves than evaluating territory.

[Kirby]

Another method I've seen is to evaluate the difference in points from a given exchange.

On an empty board, a joseki might be said to be equal for two players. So if one player gets countable profit, and the other gets influence, maybe you can say that the position is about equal. If one of the players make a questionable exchange, perhaps you can compare that to what would be more ideal and see the difference in points.

I agree that this method is somewhat mystical and perhaps prone to inaccuracies, but it's still interesting to me.

[Bill Spight]

A few comments on your last game.

(;AP[GOWrite:2.3.46]ST[0]SZ[19]CA[UTF-8]GM[1]FF[4]C[I played as white in this game.]HA[2]AB[dp][pd]FG[259:]KM[0.5]WR[2d]PC[The KGS Go Server]PM[2]GN[ ]RU[Japanese]BR[1k]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]TM[1800]DT[2017-05-30]RE[B+Resign]PB[mongo]PW[Brian]
;C[I don't remember various 5-4 point joseki that well, but as black, it makes me nervous in a handicap game when my opponent does this.
That's why I did it here.]WL[1786.906]W[po]
;BL[1788.38]B[cd]
;WL[1784.085]W[fq]
;BL[1780.788]B[dn]
;WL[1781.439]W[jp]
;BL[1776.764]B[ic]
;WL[1774.54]W[qf]
;BL[1774.904]B[nd]
(
;WL[1748.253]W[qc]
;BL[1769.93]B[qd]
;WL[1745.952]W[rd]
(
;BL[1768.361]B[pc]
;WL[1740.779]W[rc]
;BL[1751.099]B[qq]
;WL[1689.693]W[oq]
;B[ro]C[Seemed too low.]BL[1745.78]
(
;C[*** See variation.]WL[1664.665]W[qn]
;BL[1743.571]B[rn]
(
;C[Looking at josekipedia now, maybe this was too much.

*** Overplay.]WL[1661.271]W[rm]
;BL[1740.024]B[qm]
;WL[1656.867]W[rl]
;BL[1737.273]B[or]
(
;WL[1607.725]W[rp]
;BL[1720.699]B[qo]
(
;WL[1455.566]W[qp]
;BL[1710.926]B[pp]
;WL[1449.815]W[op]
;BL[1704.368]B[pq]
;WL[1447.199]W[pn]
;BL[1696.756]B[rq]
;WL[1439.607]W[nr]
;BL[1694.407]B[pr]
(
;C[I can't say white is that bad. But black has sente, so, not sure.

*** You had a good position here, plus sente. Also, see variation.]WL[1436.624]W[mq]
;B[cj]C[*** You let Black have an easy opening.]BL[1689.277]
;WL[1430.225]W[ed]
;B[ec]C[Here, I'm not sure, again.]BL[1683.762]
(
;C[*** See variation.]WL[1341.245]W[dd]
;BL[1680.055]B[dc]
;WL[1339.768]W[ce]
;BL[1678.686]B[cc]
;WL[1330.869]W[fd]
;BL[1668.766]B[fc]
(
;C[*** See variation.]WL[1327.221]W[cg]
;BL[1664.636]B[be]
;C[*** Giving yourself bad shape.]WL[1324.313]W[bf]
;BL[1663.016]B[de]
;WL[1312.095]W[ee]
;BL[1661.343]B[cf]
;WL[1310.593]W[df]
;BL[1660.302]B[ce]
(
;C[Not sure.]WL[1282.301]W[dj]
;BL[1654.821]B[ef]
;WL[1280.709]W[dg]
;BL[1647.837]B[fe]
;C[*** Hallelujah! Just us women and chlidren in the fort ploy works again.]WL[1276.541]W[ck]
;B[gd]C[*** And again, Hallelujah!]BL[1644.896]
(
;C[*** See variation.]WL[1231.932]W[cm]
(
;BL[1639.476]B[pf]
;WL[1227.211]W[pg]
;BL[1633.713]B[qg]
(
;C[*** What is big? See variation.]WL[1209.243]W[rf]
;BL[1615.565]B[qh]
(
;WL[1205.138]W[ph]
;BL[1613.92]B[qi]
(
;C[Seems dangerous.]WL[1198.254]W[oj]
;BL[1594.491]B[oi]
;WL[1187.983]W[pi]
;BL[1593.131]B[pj]
;WL[1176.292]W[qj]
;BL[1591.206]B[pk]
;WL[1173.797]W[ni]
;BL[1588.981]B[oh]
;WL[1172.414]W[og]
;BL[1587.949]B[nh]
;WL[1169.717]W[ng]
;BL[1586.583]B[mh]
;WL[1088.858]W[ri]
;BL[1566.696]B[qk]
;WL[1086.237]W[rj]
;B[rk]C[Here, I should probably concede a bit, and work toward reducing the top.]BL[1565.322]
(
;WL[954.313]W[ql]
;BL[1560.592]B[ok]
;WL[864.353]W[md]
;B[mg]C[*** Oops! End of comments.]BL[1552.242]
;WL[843.235]W[nf]
;BL[1551.001]B[mf]
;WL[839.359]W[ne]
;BL[1549.892]B[me]
;WL[835.983]W[nc]
;BL[1548.46]B[od]
;WL[833.79]W[rg]
;B[mc]C[I think I need to catch up like 20 points, but moving out a weak group can't be the way to do it.]BL[1544.971]
(
;C[Too much.]WL[826.416]W[ld]
;BL[1539.518]B[lc]
;WL[825.043]W[kd]
;BL[1528.982]B[kc]
;WL[818.718]W[jd]
;BL[1525.91]B[nb]
;WL[813.495]W[nj]
;BL[1516.604]B[mk]
;WL[785.24]W[sk]
;BL[1503.024]B[nk]
;WL[781.929]W[lj]
;BL[1498.759]B[mj]
;WL[780.358]W[li]
;BL[1497.115]B[mi]
;WL[763.071]W[gh]
;BL[1491.402]B[ih]
;WL[759.527]W[ig]
;BL[1486.661]B[hg]
;WL[758.139]W[hh]
;BL[1478.402]B[jh]
;WL[748.036]W[ij]
;BL[1471.968]B[gg]
;WL[744.088]W[kg]
;BL[1449.801]B[kh]
;WL[730.691]W[lh]
;BL[1442.396]B[lg]
;WL[705.98]W[jg]
;BL[1434.264]B[if]
;WL[700.212]W[kf]
;BL[1431.906]B[ke]
;WL[674.511]W[je]
;BL[1421.067]B[jf]
;WL[666.412]W[le]
;BL[1419.052]B[lf]
;WL[665.5]W[ke]
;BL[1406.215]B[ie]
;WL[663.136]W[ii]
;BL[1404.512]B[jc]
;C[It's difficult to make points on the outside with N9 there.]WL[594.599]W[cq]
;BL[1387.828]B[dq]
(
;WL[592.058]W[cp]
;BL[1382.317]B[cn]
(
;WL[581.54]W[co]
;BL[1376.032]B[dm]
;WL[577.655]W[do]
;BL[1372.527]B[eo]
;WL[574.558]W[ep]
;BL[1368.327]B[er]
(
;WL[570.731]W[fr]
;BL[1364.945]B[cr]
;WL[568.601]W[br]
;BL[1361.547]B[bo]
;WL[533.424]W[bp]
;BL[1355.57]B[ap]
;WL[531.271]W[bq]
;BL[1352.58]B[cl]
;WL[520.286]W[eq]
;BL[1336.734]B[dk]
;WL[497.026]W[bm]
;BL[1326.894]B[bn]
;WL[490.306]W[bk]
;BL[1325.235]B[bl]
;WL[487.366]W[ek]
;BL[1322.702]B[dl]
;WL[484.857]W[bj]
;BL[1321.026]B[ci]
;WL[483.51]W[bi]
;BL[1295.412]B[ej]
(
;WL[474.481]W[fo]
;BL[1291.637]B[di]
;WL[466.462]W[eh]
;BL[1284.455]B[fi]
;WL[443.487]W[fh]
;BL[1270.741]B[bh]
;WL[434.939]W[bg]
;BL[1267.573]B[ch]
;WL[433.259]W[ah]
;BL[1242.685]B[ai]
;WL[429.047]W[aj]
;BL[1240.733]B[al]
;WL[427.382]W[ag]
;BL[1231.43]B[fk]
;WL[415.474]W[fl]
;BL[1226.648]B[gk]
(
;WL[404.189]W[el]
;BL[1219.976]B[gl]
;WL[391.937]W[en]
;BL[1215.814]B[gm]
;WL[389.596]W[fn]
;BL[1160.229]B[il]
;WL[374.342]W[gj]
;BL[1146.695]B[gi]
;WL[344.911]W[hi]
;BL[1126.862]B[kl]
;WL[326.849]W[jl]
;BL[1122.334]B[jm]
;WL[236.215]W[hl]
;B[hm]C[Brian 2d, thanksmongo 1k, thx c u]BL[1115.107]
)
(
;W[gl]
;B[hk]
;C[Just try to make points on the bottom? Hard to win now.End of comments.]W[im]
)

)
(
;W[di]
;B[ei]
;W[ch]
;B[fk]
;C[Still behind.]W[fo]
)

)
(
;C[Minor detail, but I should play here first.]W[fo]
;B[en]
;W[fr]
)

)
(
;W[bm]
;B[co]
;W[br]
(
;B[dr]
;W[bo]
;B[bn]
;C[Maybe that's better.]W[an]
)
(
;B[bp]
;W[dr]
)

)

)
(
;C[I didn't want to hane, because I wanted him to be weak. Maybe it's better, though.]W[dr]
;B[er]
;W[cr]
;B[eq]
;W[fr]
;B[ds]
;W[bo]
;B[bp]
;W[cp]
;B[co]
;W[cn]
;B[do]
;W[bq]
;B[bn]
;W[ap]
;B[dm]
;W[cl]
;C[Maybe I can attack it?]B[fp]
)

)
(
;C[Maybe start from 3-3.]W[cq]
)

)
(
;W[mg]
;B[lh]
;W[md]
;B[mc]
;W[lc]
;B[me]
;W[ld]
)

)
(
;W[of]
;B[pe]
;C[Something like this, maybe?There's a bit less risk, and I can fight with my single Q13 stones?]W[pk]
;B[oj]
)

)
(
;W[of]
;B[pe]
)

)
(
;W[qh]
(
;B[rg]
;W[ph]
)
(
;B[og]
;W[ph]
;B[oh]
;W[of]
;B[pe]
;W[oi]
)

)

)
(
;C[There's still aji around here.]B[di]
;W[ci]
;B[bj]
)

)
(
;C[*** How about this?]W[bo]
)

)
(
;C[Heavy?]W[eg]
;B[ff]
;W[ef]
;B[dh]
;W[dg]
;B[ie]
)

)
(
;W[ch]
)

)
(
;W[fc]
;B[dc]
(
;C[Something like this seems light, maybe. I see this kind of stuff sometimes.But my concern is that black can attack with J17 and naturally fix the defect around N16.

*** Here is a thought. See variation.]W[fg]
)
(
;C[*** Put Black to the test. Besides, this may be best play.]W[ld]
)

)

)
(
;C[*** Covers two cuts.]W[no]
)

)
(
;C[I considered this move.]W[pp]
;B[qp]
;W[pn]
;B[nq]
)

(
;C[I thought about this, too.]W[pn]
;B[qp]
;W[nr]
;B[pr]
;C[Maybe this is better than the game?]W[nq]
)

)
(
;C[I'm inclined to respond, but I'm afraid of the variation.]W[nr]
;B[op]
(
;W[pp]
;B[pq]
;W[nq]
;B[pn]
;W[qo]
;C[Seemed to be black's plan.]B[oo]
)
(
;W[np]
;B[pq]
;W[nq]
(
;B[pn]
;W[qo]
;B[oo]
;W[on]
;B[pp]
;W[pm]
;B[qp]
;W[ql]
;C[Maybe OK for me.]B[no]
)
(
;B[oo]
;W[pn]
;B[pp]
;W[on]
;B[no]
;C[Maybe OK?]W[qj]
)

)

)

(
;W[pq]
;B[pr]
)

)
(
;W[qm]
;B[or]
;W[nr]
;B[pr]
;C[Probably white is better locally.]W[nq]
)

)
(
;W[cl]
)

)
(
;B[re]
;W[rc]
;B[qe]
;W[ob]
;B[nb]
;W[oc]
;B[nc]
;W[rf]
;B[sd]
;C[I imagined this.]W[pj]
)

)
(
;C[This seems possible, too.]W[pj]
)

)

Main focus: Put Black to the test.

[yithril]

I have tried to take Alpha Go and apply it to my game, but it's really difficult. The value network idea is extremely difficult because there's so much to take into account. There's so many moves you don't end up seeing that could have been better. Glad to see you're trying this approach. I might try taking notes too. I play too much with feeling and I just play where I think is good, not necessarily because of some chain of logical reasoning, which I think is not good long term.

[Magicwand]

about alpha go style..

Lately, i decided to play what i think is a good move but was told that it bad by stronger players.
alpha go played it and professionals agreed but many are moves that was my first instinct.

as a result of my experiment i am losing more games than before... but sometimes those moves help me win.
i will continue experiment with this approach until my winning percentage increase...

i will let everyone know if i see improvement in near future.
it is my desprate approach to improve...since i am stuck at my level too long.

[Kirby]

Coming back to go (knock on wood?).

I had a fun time at the go congress, and decided to join the AYD again in September. Hopefully, my family medical situation stays stable.

Anyway, I decided to play a game on my "Kirby" account on KGS, which is 1k.

Here's the game:

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[WebGoBoard:0.10.8]ST[0]RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.5]HA[0]TM[1500]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]RE[W+3.50]DT[2017-08-29]PB[keiko32]BR[1k]PW[Kirby]WR[1k]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[I played as white in this game. I felt I had a pretty good lead, but somehow, the score was closer than I imagined.];B[dp]BL[1494.914];W[pd]WL[1493.198];B[pp]BL[1492.654];W[cd]WL[1491.287];B[jp]BL[1490.272]C[I couldn't decide between R6 and C6.

I guess I like the imagined variation in C6 better. That's because C16 is low and not interesting for black to approach later, if the variation goes like that.](;W[cn]WL[1463.357](;B[dk]BL[1486.92];W[fq]WL[1446.488](;B[dn]BL[1477.867];W[dm]WL[1433.33];B[en]BL[1470.366];W[cq]WL[1431.214];B[dq]BL[1465.829];W[cp]WL[1429.944];B[co]BL[1462.853];W[bo]WL[1428.896];B[do]BL[1460.605];W[bm]WL[1427.907];B[em]BL[1457.842];W[qn]WL[1421.919];B[pn]BL[1452.126]C[Perhaps an overplay.];W[nq]WL[1414.226];B[lq]BL[1435.564](;W[pq]WL[1388.649];B[qq]BL[1427.467];W[qr]WL[1385.851];B[oq]BL[1424.252];W[pr]WL[1382.258];B[op]BL[1422.071](;W[qp]WL[1334.415];B[qo]BL[1416.24];W[rq]WL[1332.504](;B[rn]BL[1405.764];W[or]WL[1319.57]C[I think white got a bit of profit here.];B[np]BL[1401.455];W[jd]WL[1311.609];B[pf]BL[1386.855](;W[nd]WL[1274.733]C[Responding seemed ok to me.];B[qd]BL[1382.65];W[qc]WL[1273.837];B[qe]BL[1380.352];W[rc]WL[1272.888];B[nf]BL[1378.494](;W[qh]WL[1166.403](;B[md]BL[1372.542];W[ne]WL[1152.403];B[me]BL[1370.454];W[mf]WL[1151.406](;B[mc]BL[1368.505]C[I think this was a big mistake.];W[of]WL[1144.467];B[ng]BL[1365.622];W[og]WL[1143.068];B[oh]BL[1362.691];W[pg]WL[1141.196]C[I suddenly felt that the game was good for white.];B[ob]BL[1359.48];W[pc]WL[1074.789];B[nh]BL[1356.047](;W[lf]WL[1071.003]C[Perhaps overplay, since I don't have a direct attack on his stones yet?];B[ke]BL[1352.227];W[lh]WL[1054.021];B[je]BL[1342.457];W[lj]WL[1049.998];B[mi]BL[1334.926];W[li]WL[1048.228];B[qi]BL[1329.404];W[ri]WL[1035.679];B[ph]BL[1324.851];W[qg]WL[1030.708];B[qj]BL[1321.949];W[oj]WL[1026.441];B[nk]BL[1318.27];W[nj]WL[1011.498];B[mj]BL[1314.856];W[mk]WL[1010.482];B[ok]BL[1308.095];W[ml]WL[1002.262];B[nm]BL[1296.543];W[mm]WL[989.715];B[nn]BL[1293.189];W[id]WL[985.51];B[kk]BL[1287.4];W[lk]WL[980.163];B[jg]BL[1281.083](;W[ie]WL[969.19];B[if]BL[1270.488];W[hf]WL[874.311]C[Kind of tried to trick him, but maybe it's a bad idea.];B[hg]BL[1266.708];W[jh]WL[870.124](;B[gf]BL[1262.557]C[Anyway, he fell for the trick, I guess.];W[le]WL[868.016];B[kd]BL[1259.928];W[ld]WL[866.461];B[kc]BL[1228.7];W[lc]WL[863.058];B[lb]BL[1226.532];W[mb]WL[859.384];B[kb]BL[1224.237];W[nc]WL[850.042]C[Game seemed OK.];B[gd]BL[1222.35](;W[gc]WL[836.044]C[Maybe overplay.];B[fc]BL[1218.706];W[fd]WL[834.83];B[ge]BL[1215.907];W[ec]WL[823.908];B[fb]BL[1212.334];W[ed]WL[820.716];B[hc]BL[1209.288];W[dr]WL[732.692];B[er]BL[900.845];W[cr]WL[730.181];B[eq]BL[898.465];W[kp]WL[615.442](;B[kq]BL[893.38];W[jo]WL[613.809];B[ko]BL[888.656];W[kn]WL[612.154];B[lp]BL[884.682];W[jn]WL[604.357];B[io]BL[875.384];W[in]WL[602.903];B[hn]BL[873.242];W[ho]WL[601.597];B[ip]BL[870.321];W[hm]WL[600.374];B[gn]BL[868.453];W[il]WL[598.992];B[dl]BL[863.576];W[cg]WL[589.401];B[cm]BL[859.311];W[bn]WL[588.193];B[df]BL[856.377];W[cf]WL[586.137];B[de]BL[849.963];W[eb]WL[582.758];B[gb]BL[845.506];W[ce]WL[580.69];B[ln]BL[838.256];W[lm]WL[576.23];B[ik]BL[833.156];W[rj]WL[572.399];B[qk]BL[830.627];W[hk]WL[569.475];B[ij]BL[828.135];W[hj]WL[567.647];B[ih]BL[823.724];W[ji]WL[560.009];B[ii]BL[821.945](;W[dd]WL[555.697]C[Slow.];B[jl]BL[820.518];W[km]WL[549.884];B[gl]BL[816.862](;W[hl]WL[548.433];B[rp]BL[814.021]C[Pretty big..];W[mr]WL[541.186];B[qq]BL[808.636];W[sq]WL[539.705];B[sp]BL[804.289];W[rs]WL[537.147];B[lr]BL[801.45];W[mh]WL[526.64];B[ni]BL[798.144];W[rk]WL[524.057];B[rl]BL[796.057];W[ql]WL[515.21];B[pj]BL[763.382](;W[pl]WL[496.322];B[qm]BL[756.718]C[I misread that.](;W[sl]WL[475.646];B[rm]BL[753.74];W[cj]WL[465.505];B[bl]BL[748.494];W[es]WL[461.308];B[fs]BL[745.329];W[ds]WL[460.353];B[fr]BL[743.512];W[ls]WL[458.606]C[Forgot that wasn't sente..];B[ks]BL[741.139];W[ms]WL[451.643];B[mq]BL[739.215];W[nr]WL[450.625];B[ma]BL[735.82];W[na]WL[448.284];B[la]BL[733.457];W[nb]WL[446.811];B[am]BL[712.155];W[ap]WL[431.064];B[an]BL[709.724];W[gm]WL[418.795];B[ar]BL[706.197];W[bs]WL[397.309];B[fm]BL[700.948];W[go]WL[392.228];B[fn]BL[698.021];W[mn]WL[385.956];B[mo]BL[693.553];W[lo]WL[383.955];B[al]BL[689.025];W[aq]WL[345.228];B[bp]BL[677.713];W[bq]WL[342.467];B[ao]BL[675.76];W[bp]WL[340.297];B[ci]BL[667.245];W[bi]WL[334.79];B[ch]BL[657.064];W[bh]WL[330.667];B[dj]BL[655.683];W[bj]WL[314.406];B[dg]BL[650.755](;W[dh]WL[310.651]C[Should have read this better.];B[di]BL[648.117];W[eh]WL[309.587];B[fg]BL[642.206];W[fj]WL[247.757];B[gi]BL[634.112];W[fl]WL[229.113];B[fi]BL[629.815];W[nl]WL[220.413];B[ol]BL[623.577];W[ck]WL[212.143]C[I guess it's close to the end now.];B[cl]BL[618.974];W[fa]WL[204.954];B[ga]BL[615.283];W[ea]WL[203.654];B[aj]BL[603.892];W[ai]WL[183.544];B[bk]BL[598.489];W[ak]WL[157.094];B[sr]BL[580.296];W[rr]WL[154.216];B[aj]BL[578.88];W[om]WL[137.681];B[oi]BL[574.579];W[ak]WL[135.6];B[el]BL[539.738];W[gk]WL[131.25];B[aj]BL[537.029];W[bg]WL[123.823];B[hi]BL[533.838];W[kf]WL[121.704];B[jf]BL[529.824];W[fe]WL[108.096];B[ff]BL[527.364];W[jj]WL[102.48];B[jk]BL[524.935];W[kg]WL[97.6];B[kj]BL[522.055];W[ki]WL[96.37];B[mg]BL[519.96];W[jm]WL[88.385];B[ej]BL[510.314];W[sk]WL[68.426];B[fk]BL[503.361];W[ek]WL[66.494];B[rh]BL[472.939];W[rg]WL[58.045];B[fk]BL[471.918];W[no]WL[49.624];B[oo]BL[465.595];W[ek]WL[47.63];B[ln]BL[452.426];W[fk]WL[40.44];B[lo]BL[447.871];W[kl]WL[36.348];B[sm]BL[444.678];W[ee]WL[25.588];B[ef]BL[440.213];W[lg]WL[20.532];B[qp]BL[435.196];W[ak]WL[18.438];B[]BL[419.682];W[aj]WL[15.258];B[]BL[419.682];W[]WL[15.258])(;W[fj]C[Maybe just prepare cut like this.];B[fk];W[dh];B[di];W[eh];B[fg];W[fi]))(;W[nl];B[ol];W[om](;B[pk]C[I read this.])(;B[oi]C[But of course it doesn't work.])))(;W[rm](;B[pl];W[sl])(;B[qm];W[sl]C[Better.])))(;W[ro];B[qm];W[hl]))(;W[es]C[I should play other endgame first.]))(;B[ko]C[Black might resist.]))(;W[df]C[Maybe the left side is bigger?]))(;B[ih];W[le];B[kd];W[ld];B[lc];W[kc];B[jc];W[kb];B[jb];W[jf];B[kf];W[kg])(;B[kg];W[mh];B[ni]))(;W[ii]C[I think I should probably just move out or something.];B[ie];W[hd]))(;W[jm]C[Maybe I can just ignore for now, and let him worry about it.];B[jk];W[kk]))(;B[ng]C[I think black should protect here.]))(;B[qj]C[I imagined that this might be ok since black is also a bit weak.];W[pj];B[pk];W[pi];B[ok];W[og];B[of];W[nj](;B[oj];W[oi];B[ni];W[mi];B[nh];W[ng];B[mh];W[mg];B[lh];W[oh];B[ji]C[Maybe this is good for black? Bottom is pretty big.])(;B[nk];W[mj];B[mk];W[ki];B[kk]C[Maybe still good for black? Top black group is weak, though...])))(;W[ll]C[Just throw a stone in the middle?]))(;W[pi]C[I considered something like this.];B[nd];W[oe]C[But it's not clear to me what will happen.]))(;B[or]C[I imagined that he'd block.];W[ro];B[qm];W[po];B[oo]C[This was what I had in mind.]))(;W[or];B[rq]C[Seems risky for white.];W[np];B[on]C[Maybe it's ok.];W[nn];B[nm];W[mn];B[mm](;W[kn];B[ln];W[lo];B[lm];W[ko];B[mo])(;W[ln])))(;W[pm]C[At least here, I should probably hane. I did a pattern search type thing with GoGoD, and in all cases with this kind of local shape, the pros did this hane.];B[on](;W[qq];B[qo];W[pq];B[or]C[I guess there is the downside of this move.];W[oq];B[nr])(;W[pq];B[qq];W[qr]C[This might still work.])))(;B[cq]C[I know that this is an option for black.. But I felt I could try to be light around this area, and make black's influence less useful.

Maybe it's the wrong thinking.]))(;B[cl];W[cq];B[dq];W[cp];B[do];W[bn];B[em];W[qn]C[Option 1.]))(;W[qn];B[ql];W[qq];B[pq];W[qp];B[po];W[rn];B[om];W[cn]C[Option 2...]))

Compared to how I felt during the game, when I saw the final score, I was amazed it was so close - I felt like I was winning by more.

But going through the game, I see that I made a series of endgame mistakes - even ones that I can see.

Sadly, I'm not going to make all of the diagrams for this review. That's pretty time consuming compared to the benefit I seem to get for it.

I've been somewhat conscious of the benefit I get vs. effort I spend on stuff, lately.

Maybe it's part of getting older.

[mitsun]

Both sides made endgame mistakes in the lower left corner. B199 feels good but actually helps W. The game would have been really close if B had turned the corner into seki.

[Kirby]

Instead of playing a game today, I reviewed part of a professional game. I get a monthly Korean go magazine, so I just took a game from that. I looked through the game move by move, and sometimes looked at commentary.

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[7.50]
PW[Park Junghwan]PB[Zhou Ruiyang]C[Instead of playing a game today, I'm reviewing this game that I found in a go magazine.

Black is Zhou Ruiyang 9p and white is Park Junghwan 9p.]
;B[pd]
;W[dp]
;B[qp]
;W[dc]
;B[nq]C[I usually like playing F3 first, personally. Just a habit, I guess.]
;W[nc]
(;B[ce]C[This is the first move that sticks out to me. By instinct, I'd almost automatically play Q14 after white's approach.

Approaching at the 3-4 makes sense since white can enclose at C15 with one move.]
;W[dh]
;B[pf]C[Now he plays this.]
;W[cd]C[Making black heavy seems like a good choice.]
;B[ed]C[I guess that's why black plays lightly here.]
;W[dd]
;B[oc]
;W[ee]
;B[nd]C[In the end, black got a nice shape in the top right, and white got a nice shape in the top left.
Maybe it's even?]
(;W[cn]C[This is another move that's not in my inventory.

My view is that the right side is getting big, so I'd be concerned about reducing it.]
;B[pk]
;W[ip]C[In the end, black got a nice position on the right... But white also got a nice position on the bottom left.

Interesting.

Maybe I'm too afraid to let my opponent get stuff, when I have potential to make stuff on my own.]
;B[id]C[Peaceful, I guess. It's a big spot..]
;W[qc]C[I read the commentary in my go magazine a little bit at this point.

It poses the question comparing white's shape in the top left and black's shape in the top right: who got the better shape? The black stone at C15 isn't that effective, and white has the move at R17. Depending on the response, black could make something on the right or on the top. So white was in a hurry to probe and ask black's intention with white 20.

(My summary, anyway)]
(;B[rf]C[Black chose to block here, which is an interesting idea.]
(;W[mc]C[Now if white moves out, black has a better position.]
;B[ob])
(;W[ie]C[Then there's this funky move, which reminds me of alphago.

I guess, in a simple way of thinking, white is just expanding the left side.]
;B[hd]C[Black moves to make more territory on the top - seems natural to me.]
;W[he]
;B[je]
;W[jf]
;B[ge]
;W[gd]
;B[gc]
;W[fd]
(;B[jd]C[This is unnatural to me.]
(;W[ig]
(;B[cj]C[I guess black created aji first, and then invades.]
;W[ch]
(;B[fj]
;W[dk]
(;B[hg]
;W[gf]
;B[ih]
(;W[kf]
(;B[gg]
;W[ff]
(;B[mc]
;W[re]C[Black ignored this move.

I didn't get it either, but it looks like it's to prepare an invasion on the right side, according to my magazine.

I don't yet comprehend the idea of creating a dead group to make aji for an invasion. I need to learn that.]
(;B[qe]C[If black plays here..]
;W[rd]
;B[pb]
;W[qg]C[White can have kind of a forcing move here. It's an interesting idea.])
(;B[rd]C[If black plays here...]
;W[qe]
;B[qd]
;W[qh]C[Invasion.])
(;B[gp]C[Anyway, black invaded.]
;W[eq]C[Taking territory solidly while attacking.]
;B[cq]
;W[lq]
;B[gr]
;W[dr]
;B[gn]
;W[pq]C[It's getting late, and this is all I have time to review for right now.

I'll continue from here next time I review a pro game.]))
(;B[fl]C[If black plays elsewhere, I guess there's the threat of moving with O17.]
;W[mc]
;B[ob]
;W[le]
(;B[ld]
;W[md])
(;B[md]
;W[ld]
;B[lc]
;W[kc]
;B[lb]
;W[kb]
;B[mb]
;W[kd])))
(;B[jg]
;W[if]C[I guess it's not painful for white this way.]))
(;W[jh]C[My natural inclination is here.]
;B[hf]
;W[if]
;B[kf]C[I guess this is painful for white.]))
(;B[dj]C[I guess if black answers, white can keep attacking the whole group, and help the aji.]
;W[gi]C[Something like this?]))
(;B[dm]C[My thought was to play something like this.]))
(;B[fe]
;W[ec]C[Black doesn't seem to have anything quite yet, but there is aji.]))
(;W[kf]C[Maybe this isn't much of a threat anymore?]))
(;B[ke]C[In my game, I'd play something like this. I guess white gets more forcing moves this way.]
;W[kf]C[Feels kind of more forcing.])))
(;B[qd]C[The magazine notes that, if black plays here...]
;W[mc]LB[ob:A][md:B]C[There's aji at 'A' and 'B' for white to move out.

Compared to having a black stone at S14 like in the game, the right side is less solid. So the danger of white moving out is more severe.]))
(;W[qk]C[Something like this.

Obviously, ,white is not concerned.]))
(;B[pf]
(;W[jd]C[This is how the game would likely have gone for me if I were black.])
(;W[dh]C[If we transpose the moves in the game, I guess it'd be like white playing here next.]
;B[ce]C[White's move at D12 seems weird, but black's approach at C15 also seems too close - it could get attacked easily. It would make more sense to play on the top in this position, maybe?]
;W[cd]
;B[de]
;W[fd]C[Black is heavy, now.])))

The file above is only the partial game. It's getting late, so I couldn't finish going through it all. Next time I go over a pro game, I'll continue from that position.

Note: The game tree doesn't show the main line on the first branch. I moved through alternative variations on the main lines sometimes, so you have to dig around to find the real game. Look for the longest branch.