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Offline Bantari
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #241 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:46 am 
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Violence wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | W X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Doesn't this just lose a ko threat? The below move offers two threats of the same strength. The move actually played offers one solid threat and then a threat of replacing one ko by another, possibly smaller one.

There are some endgame considerations, but I would be interested to see Violence's reasons for rejecting this move, if this is the area he chose to threat in.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #242 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:55 am 
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@Bantari

I wouldn't have played your move because black's response gives black better endgame on top. I think it loses at least two points compared to Violence's move. I don't think playing lossy ko threats is tolerable unless you're certain you're going to win the ko.

I could be wrong though.

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Offline Bantari
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #243 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:13 pm 
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
@Bantari

[hide]I wouldn't have played your move because black's response gives black better endgame on top. I think it loses at least two points compared to Violence's move. I don't think playing lossy ko threats is tolerable unless you're certain you're going to win the ko.

I could be wrong though.


You are right. This is why I mentioned the 'endgame considerations'.

However - There are some positions in which a potential 2-3 points of endgame gain or loss is not the most important thing when deciding on a move. Such might be this situation, since this KO and related issues might well determine the outcome long before the endgame gets into the 2-3 points range. But maybe not...

It depends on how the players evaluate the sequence of KO plays. In other words, which will be the threat to have to be unanswered, which side will have to ignore it, and what will be its size. And this size has to be evaluated for the sequence starting with my move and with the played move, and then the points difference needs to be calculated and compared to the potential endgame impact of 2-3 points. So I see it as a pretty complex problem, especially in such slow game when both players actually have the time to think about that.

I am not saying my move is better, only that I wonder:
a) if Violence considered it, and
b) if so, what was the reasoning behind rejecting it (was it the 2-3 points endgame or was it the evaluation of Ko-threat sequence?)

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Offline Li Kao
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #244 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:27 pm 
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@Bantari
Then why don't you ask him? It's too late for him to play your move, so you won't influence the game.

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Offline Bantari
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #245 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:39 pm 
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Li Kao wrote:
@Bantari
Then why don't you ask him? It's too late for him to play your move, so you won't influence the game.


Because I forgot to insert the @Violence thingy... Not very well-versed in the M-games. Yet.
Also - if he does not think like that at all, would it be fair for me to draw his attention to such considerations? For the next move...
Dunno...

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #246 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:32 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=4, B=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 3 . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

to observers.. you can also ask me. i can tell you many answers to your questions also :)

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Offline Bantari
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #247 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:36 pm 
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Magicwand wrote:
to observers.. you can also ask me. i can tell you many answers to your questions also :)


Thx for offering.
I will when I need to.
For know I know your answers. ;)

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #248 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:48 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=4, B=8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . 3 . . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X 1 . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . 2 O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After some reading...

Cut me. I dare you.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #249 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:00 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . O 1 . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #250 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:06 pm 
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Next move will be tomorrow.

Complicated... gotta read...
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Offline Fredrik
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #251 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:49 am 
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Bantari wrote:
Violence wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | W X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Doesn't this just lose a ko threat? The below move offers two threats of the same strength. The move actually played offers one solid threat and then a threat of replacing one ko by another, possibly smaller one.

There are some endgame considerations, but I would be interested to see Violence's reasons for rejecting this move, if this is the area he chose to threat in.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



We should only resort to damaging ko-threats when we are in fact desperate. If Violence had a big dragon that was up for ko, then damaging ko-threats could be justify because he had to. In this kind of position, the ko can be regarded as a flower-ko for white because if he lose the ko he lose nothing valuable. This means there are several ko other ko-threats on the board. Any move that would give White a solid lead if Black does not respond can be regarded as a ko-threat. And making a damaging ko-threat (I think it loses more then two-points as Black can severely reduce the top with a move at C19) for a ko-threat would be terrible deal for white when he's playing a flower-ko.

Hopefully I explained this properly, but if you want further explanation please tell me!
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #252 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:50 am 
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Fredrik wrote:
We should only resort to damaging ko-threats when we are in fact desperate. If Violence had a big dragon that was up for ko, then damaging ko-threats could be justify because he had to. In this kind of position, the ko can be regarded as a flower-ko for white because if he lose the ko he lose nothing valuable. This means there are several ko other ko-threats on the board. Any move that would give White a solid lead if Black does not respond can be regarded as a ko-threat. And making a damaging ko-threat (I think it loses more then two-points as Black can severely reduce the top with a move at C19) for a ko-threat would be terrible deal for white when he's playing a flower-ko.

Hopefully I explained this properly, but if you want further explanation please tell me!


I'm so glad you said this, as I wondered about this too and felt too underqualified to say it. My feel for this ko is moves that just pick up points - moves you'd like to play anyway, especially if you could follow them up:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X W . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #253 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:10 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . W . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yeah... I could... just reduce this to two points... and win the game...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 0 . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 8 X , 5 . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 6 1 X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | 3 X 4 2 O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Profit in sente, yada yada.

That's not satisfying enough for me...

Since I already feel I'm ahead, why not just aggressively increase the lead until he resigns?

I woke up and thought to myself, why does the tiebreak match have to end in a point difference?

Let's force res.
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #254 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:22 am 
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Is irrational exuberance a requirement to be 4d+?

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #255 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:32 am 
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Rearranged post with extra stuff explaining why Violence should resign:
Actually, it is closer to 'why Magicwand should resign".

Violence wrote:

...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 0 . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 8 X , 5 . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 6 1 X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | 3 X 4 2 O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...
Let's force res.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X a . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 . X X O b . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X c d . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | 3 X 4 2 O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How does black defend here?
'A' and 'b' are miai, as are 'c' and 'd'.

I figured out the answer to my own question.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X 4 . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . X X O 3 . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 2 5 6 X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...and even if white dodges one ko with :w4: above, the sequence below forces him into another ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . X X O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O 3 X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O 4 O X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O 1 X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X X O X O O O 2 O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O 5 . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


FWIW, this suggests a possible future strategy for white. If he could play someplace else so that the above sequence is not possible, such a move would be a threat to kill unconditionally. Say, for example, that white played :w2: above, it would be a threat to kill. So...

If white played something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . W . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . X . X . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X 1 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . a X O O O . X X O 2 X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O 3 O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

then :w3: threatens both 'a' and 'b'. White's latest move seems to support this theory.

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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #256 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:59 am 
Gosei
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Edit: No longer relevant.

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Last edited by Dusk Eagle on Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zinger
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #257 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:23 pm 
Lives in gote
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Agree .. personally I rearrange the hide tags so that the quote is also hidden.

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #258 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:15 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . 2 O X 3 X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . 1 O . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Harleqin
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #259 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:57 pm 
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Either they are blind, or they see something we do not.

(Edit: Heh, Joaz has discovered it. Good work!)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 6 7 . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 5 1 X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | 3 X O 2 O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X 2 . . . . X O . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O 1 . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O 3 X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O 4 . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O 5 X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X X O X O O O 6 O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O 7 8 X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . 9 0 X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I suspect it is the former. So, will they go on, and when we come to the 6-point endgame stage, Violence suddenly proclaim "Oh, hey, that is funny..."?

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Post #260 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:04 pm 
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@Harlequin

Doesn't :b10: @ :w11: give black a ko?

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