Any thoughts on move 26 in the Oya Koichi game that Bill posted?
It looks to me that Black takes the initiative for most of the rest of the game after this move - so I have my doubts about it,
When to protect your corner?
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John Fairbairn
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Re: When to protect your corner?
Any thoughts on move 26 in the Oya Koichi game that Bill posted?
I think you are right to have doubts. If you evaluate the position using either Mizoguchi's system (relative preponderance of stones in that half of the board) White being is being downright stupid. He should be playing a modest move. If you analyse it using Sonoda's system, based mainly on where the weak groups are, White is going walkabout in LaLaLand.
Oya plays a lot of games with amateurs. Perhaps he has picked up bad habits?
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Magicwand
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Re: When to protect your corner?
Answer is simple if you can answer when do you invade corner. If your opponent this k it is too early then you don't need to protect.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Bill Spight
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Re: When to protect your corner?
Here is move 26 from the Oya-Kataoka game.
I am unfamiliar with Mizuguchi's system, but I do have a book by Sonoda. Anyway, they both count stones, as do I.
After
each player has 7 stones on the top side and corners. Playing catch-up in the number of stones is normal. As for the top half of the board, do we count the 
stone? Well, we have to remember that these things are fuzzy. Maybe we should count it as 1/2 stone. Then White is not quite catching up, but I wouldn't call stupid. And while we are looking at the fuzzy boundaries, what about the 
stone? Surely it counts for something, maybe as much as the stone.
Now, since Oya is a 9 dan, I expect that he saw at least as far ahead as the position after
. Along the way, he surely anticipated 
, building up the Black wall.
The position after.
I am also sure that Oya anticipated the
- exchange. I did. 
If this is basically the position that Oya was aiming at, perhaps he underestimated the value of the Black wall, in conjunction with the Black stones on the left side. As indicates, he was quite willing to let Black have that wall. Or perhaps he considered this his best chance to win the game.
The keima bolsters the White group, but may be too slow. White is certainly not giving Black any difficulties.
White's group on the top side is a thorn in his side, and feels heavy to me. Maybe White should not have made it in the first place.
Maybe White should not play
, but allowing Black to press there hardly seems dynamic, either.
This is a wedge that I have surmised may be making a comeback. Anyway, it is not dynamic, either, and may be the main culprit. (Go Seigen, in his 21st Century Go set, is generally critical of wedges by White. I suspect that he would not have liked this one.)
This approach is a play that Go Seigen, in those books, often recommends for the right side.
The kick would certainly be good if Black ran with the stone, but locally it puts White 3 stones ahead (usually too many at this point in the game), and allows Black to make a Chinese formation on the right side.
I am unfamiliar with Mizuguchi's system, but I do have a book by Sonoda. Anyway, they both count stones, as do I.
After
each player has 7 stones on the top side and corners. Playing catch-up in the number of stones is normal. As for the top half of the board, do we count the stone? Well, we have to remember that these things are fuzzy. Maybe we should count it as 1/2 stone. Then White is not quite catching up, but I wouldn't call stupid. And while we are looking at the fuzzy boundaries, what about the stone? Surely it counts for something, maybe as much as the stone. Now, since Oya is a 9 dan, I expect that he saw at least as far ahead as the position after
. Along the way, he surely anticipated , building up the Black wall.The position after
.I am also sure that Oya anticipated the
- exchange. I did. If this is basically the position that Oya was aiming at, perhaps he underestimated the value of the Black wall, in conjunction with the Black stones on the left side. As indicates, he was quite willing to let Black have that wall. Or perhaps he considered this his best chance to win the game.The keima bolsters the White group, but may be too slow. White is certainly not giving Black any difficulties.
White's group on the top side is a thorn in his side, and feels heavy to me. Maybe White should not have made it in the first place.
Maybe White should not play
, but allowing Black to press there hardly seems dynamic, either.This is a wedge that I have surmised may be making a comeback. Anyway, it is not dynamic, either, and may be the main culprit. (Go Seigen, in his 21st Century Go set, is generally critical of wedges by White. I suspect that he would not have liked this one.)
This approach is a play that Go Seigen, in those books, often recommends for the right side.
The kick would certainly be good if Black ran with the
stone, but locally it puts White 3 stones ahead (usually too many at this point in the game), and allows Black to make a Chinese formation on the right side.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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dust
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Re: When to protect your corner?
Nice analysis, Bill.
I'm inclined to think 16 is a slow move and that 17 is a very astute grasping of an opportunity to make white heavy on the upper side, which will make white pay a penalty if he invades black's top right corner (which white rather stubbornly goes on to do at 26).
I'm inclined to think 16 is a slow move and that 17 is a very astute grasping of an opportunity to make white heavy on the upper side, which will make white pay a penalty if he invades black's top right corner (which white rather stubbornly goes on to do at 26).
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battra
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Re: When to protect your corner?
Regarding this question, there is an advice in Attack and Defense by Ishida and Davies that wonder about.
At least two times (diagram 8, page 14 and diagram 8, page 26) they suggest that after making a lot of potential territory, the corner should be closed, as in the diagram below.
I did play such a move a few times. But while it is nice to have a big territory, it also made me a bit ashamed, since it looked rather slow and clumsy. Is such a corner enclosure really a good idea?
At least two times (diagram 8, page 14 and diagram 8, page 26) they suggest that after making a lot of potential territory, the corner should be closed, as in the diagram below.
I did play such a move a few times. But while it is nice to have a big territory, it also made me a bit ashamed, since it looked rather slow and clumsy. Is such a corner enclosure really a good idea?
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Uberdude
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Re: When to protect your corner?
Looks a good move to me: if you don't play there and black gets a chance to 3-3 which side do you block to avoid feeling sad? It makes the bottom side (about a 3x10 block) almost solid territory, and with another move on the right side you could get a bunch more side plus centre and black doesn't have the easy way in at 3-3. If by clumsy you mean having 2 stones next to one-another as an isolated iron pillar looks a bit silly (versus says a 3-4 5-4 shiarmi) then yes that's true, but also it's solid and black doesn't have so many forcing moves against it like attachments or peeps. Kim Seongjin 7d played a move like this in the Vienna tournament which I liked: see move 47 on 2nd branch at move 1 at forum/viewtopic.php?p=221574#p221574.
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battra
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Re: When to protect your corner?
Okay, maybe I should try to embrace the lonely iron pillar shape, even if it goes against my wish to play cool moves.
The move by Kim Seongjin does not look so silly as in the diagram above though, since there is an enemy stone nearby.
The move by Kim Seongjin does not look so silly as in the diagram above though, since there is an enemy stone nearby.