Are you the first to find the tesuji?
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Kirby
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Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Doesn't seem that bad to me - you can just extend from the attachment. But I'm guessing this is from some pro game or commentary, so I'll take your word for it.
be immersed
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drmwc
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Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
As Kirby has alluded to, showing 1 move is insufficient to convince me that move 2 in these diagrams does refute my solution. A general comment on the position is that White seems to be doing very well territoriality. Hence capturing the cutting stone is a key priority, and there are two ways of doing that. It seems unlikely that either approach lead to a collapse in the corner.
For instance, the sequences below looks good for White. In the first one, for example, white seems to have a solid lead in territory; and black has a weak shape. In the seond one, white again is doing well in territory, and black's wall faces a strong group and is useless.
So I guess B need to do better than this. The only thing that occurs to me is below, but this looks like a struggle as well. White may have better moves at 5, as well.
Edited to add: Black's best chance of winning is probably going for a central moyo after doing something in the corner. In that case, white may be better off doing the other capture with 7 in the last diagram, to stop black getting a sente move helping the moyo.
For instance, the sequences below looks good for White. In the first one, for example, white seems to have a solid lead in territory; and black has a weak shape. In the seond one, white again is doing well in territory, and black's wall faces a strong group and is useless.
So I guess B need to do better than this. The only thing that occurs to me is below, but this looks like a struggle as well. White may have better moves at 5, as well.
Edited to add: Black's best chance of winning is probably going for a central moyo after doing something in the corner. In that case, white may be better off doing the other capture with 7 in the last diagram, to stop black getting a sente move helping the moyo.
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Uberdude
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Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
I don't think this a pro game, given the inefficient placement of some stones. Knowing Gomoto, I think the commentator is probably a strong bot.Kirby wrote: But I'm guessing this is from some pro game or commentary, so I'll take your word for it.
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Gomoto
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Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
When reviewing my own games (I review each of them) or studying go I always use a combination of pro go databases and strong AI to analyze the moves.Uberdude: I don't think this a pro game, given the inefficient placement of some stones. Knowing Gomoto, I think the commentator is probably a strong bot.
In this case ("Are you the first to find the tesuji") my main motivation is to improve my own tesuji knowledge. I start with a tesuji idea (e.g. from a book) and search for an application in real games (perhaps I missed the tesuji in one of my own games or I search for the tesuji in my pro database). I used a pro game as a starting point for this problem, but I tortured the kifu heavily to achieve two secondary goals: I had to change the global position to make sure the local tesuji is the biggest move, and nurturing the autistic part of my personality i also wanted an about even score for the problem position.
I enjoy studying tesuji this way because when applying tesuji to my own games I have to make sure not to just play blindly the local good move, but also be always aware of the whole board relations.
I posted this byproduct of my own tesuji studying, because I thought some of you might enjoy to look for the tesuji too and because I enjoy to discuss about go with you (by comparing variations mainly).
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drmwc
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Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
How about this? Looks good for W to me.Gomoto wrote:(good for black)
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Gomoto
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Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
I surrender 
After comparing the outcomes of P6 and Q7, drmwc`s move seems to be at least a valid alternative. Now which of the both alternatives is the better one? I am not able to decide
And I propose a new problem position to make sure the tesuji at P6 is the best move:
(Allthough white is loosing in this new position already
Thanks to everybody helping to improve the problem.
After comparing the outcomes of P6 and Q7, drmwc`s move seems to be at least a valid alternative. Now which of the both alternatives is the better one? I am not able to decide
And I propose a new problem position to make sure the tesuji at P6 is the best move:
(Allthough white is loosing in this new position already
Thanks to everybody helping to improve the problem.
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Kirby
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Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Ok. It's always a strong statement to say that there is only one good move.
Anyway, thanks for the problem.
Anyway, thanks for the problem.
be immersed
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drmwc
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Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
I guess why my move is duff comes to a comparison of:
against:
It's an interesting question.
- Black seems to have more forcing moves in the centre in the second diagram.
- Black's shape in the lower right corner is worse in the second diagram.
- The lower side is more open in the first diagram.
On balance, my preference (for White) is for the first diagram. However, if a strong bot says the second is best, it's more likely to be correct than me.
Thanks for the problem - it was fun.
against:
It's an interesting question.
- Black seems to have more forcing moves in the centre in the second diagram.
- Black's shape in the lower right corner is worse in the second diagram.
- The lower side is more open in the first diagram.
On balance, my preference (for White) is for the first diagram. However, if a strong bot says the second is best, it's more likely to be correct than me.
Thanks for the problem - it was fun.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Worth repeating.Kirby wrote:It's always a strong statement to say that there is only one good move.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Gomoto
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Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
... if a strong bot says ...
funny thing is the strong bots don`t agree with each other most of the time. Even if they are about the same strength.
-> there is no absolute truth in go
funny thing is the strong bots don`t agree with each other most of the time. Even if they are about the same strength.
-> there is no absolute truth in go