Territory inside territory question.

Joe621 · Post by **Joe621** » Sun May 06, 2018 7:57 pm

Hey Bill. I came across an old post of yours from a while back.

A few questions. First, is this game finished? Doesnt look like it to me.

Does the black group at the top center live even though white is surrounding it or does the white group surrounding it become prisoners because of the bigger black group surrounding it? or do they each get points for those territories because each group has two eyes therefore they both live.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun May 06, 2018 8:27 pm

Joe621 wrote:Hey Bill. I came across an old post of yours from a while back.

A few questions. First, is this game finished? Doesnt look like it to me.

It's not a game.

Does the black group at the top center live even though white is surrounding it or does the white group surrounding it become prisoners because of the bigger black group surrounding it? or do they each get points for those territories because each group has two eyes therefore they both live.

Both groups are alive. Neither can be captured -- unless one of their own eyes is filled.

As I said, if you try to capture all dead stones, this will become clearer.

Joe621 · Post by **Joe621** » Sun May 06, 2018 8:56 pm

Okay thanks I've actually been letting the computer play each other all day and I count the board at the end of the match without looking at the results and im right every time so thats good. I was just confused about that diagram you posted but that answers my question thanks. I also have been playing it out to the end to see what happens because the
two computers end the game early, what I've noticed is that it usually doesn't effect score its still the same unless one player slips up.

Joe621 · Post by **Joe621** » Mon May 07, 2018 9:52 am

How would you guys calculate this score? Black wins by 15? This is just an example I came up with to help me learn so bare with me.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Mon May 07, 2018 11:10 am

Assuming neither side thinks they can capture any stones of the other, Black has 18 points inside her live groups, and White has 3 inside hers, and there are no prisoners, so Black wins by 15.

Pio2001 · Post by **Pio2001** » Mon May 07, 2018 12:15 pm

Since there are no prisoners, it seems that White has passed 19 times during the game (if there was no handicap) !

That leads to extremely special results, with a huge difference between the chinese and japanese rules.

Japanese/korean rules with a 6.5 komi :
Black's territory = 18
Black's captures = 0
Black's score = 18

White's territory = 3
White's captures = 0
White's komi = 6.5
White's score = 9.5

Chinese/AGA rules with a 7.5 komi :
Black's territory = 18
Black's stones on the board = 37
Black's score = 55

White's territory = 3
White's stones on the board = 18
White's komi = 7.5
White's score = 28.5

If it was a handicap game, the result would be different.

Joe621 · Post by **Joe621** » Mon May 07, 2018 1:00 pm

Pio2001 wrote:Since there are no prisoners, it seems that White has passed 19 times during the game (if there was no handicap) !

That leads to extremely special results, with a huge difference between the chinese and japanese rules.

Japanese/korean rules with a 6.5 komi :
Black's territory = 18
Black's captures = 0
Black's score = 18

White's territory = 3
White's captures = 0
White's komi = 6.5
White's score = 9.5

Chinese/AGA rules with a 7.5 komi :
Black's territory = 18
Black's stones on the board = 37
Black's score = 55

White's territory = 3
White's stones on the board = 18
White's komi = 7.5
White's score = 28.5

If it was a handicap game, the result would be different.

I was using Japanese rules and no Komi. I counted 15. Not sure why the computer calculated 15.1

Joe621 · Post by **Joe621** » Mon May 07, 2018 3:11 pm

Okay one more and I swear I'm done.

I got 42 for black and 14 for white. Black wins by 28.0 points. Is that what you guys came up with? I know the game is not finished I played it out to the end afterwards but lets just say it was. Would that be the correct score, 42-14?

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon May 07, 2018 3:36 pm

Hi Joe,

Suggestions for a better experience both for you and visitors of this forum:

- Finish your games. ( Already mentioned many times in this thread. )

- Resize ( shrink ) large photos.
- Use the [hide] tags for ( large ) images. Example:

- Remember some visitors use very small screens (e.g. iPhone 5).

- Use diagrams.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . X . . . . . | $$ | O O O O X . . X X X X . . | $$ | O X X X . X X O O O X . X | $$ | O X . X X X O . . O O X X | $$ | X . X O O O O X X O . O X | $$ | . . X X O . X . X O . O X | $$ | . . X O O O X X O O O O X | $$ | . X X X X O , X X X O X X | $$ | X X O O O O X X . X O O X | $$ | X O O X O X X X X O O O X | $$ | O O X . X . X . X O . O X | $$ ----------------------------[/go]

- Use [sgf] tags.

Joe621 · Post by **Joe621** » Mon May 07, 2018 6:54 pm

Ahh so that how you're so quick to reply using diagrams xD

Thanks.

I want to thank you guys. All of you who posted here especially Bill and EdLee, for your dedication to helping me and such fast response timing. To think that a month ago the only liberty I knew of was the statue of liberty, the only atari I knew of was the joy stick game system, the only eyes I knew of were on our faces, and the rest I wouldn't have learned about if it wasn't for you guys helping me thank you.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon May 07, 2018 7:24 pm

Joe621 wrote:Okay one more and I swear I'm done.

I got 42 for black and 14 for white. Black wins by 28.0 points. Is that what you guys came up with? I know the game is not finished I played it out to the end afterwards but lets just say it was.

No, let's not just say it was. Trying to score unfinished games gets you in trouble.

Would that be the correct score, 42-14?

The game is not over, there is no correct score. And, BTW, the number of prisoners is screwy. By alternating play Black should have 12 more prisoners than White, not 3. That's why I have given two possible scores, one where Black has 9 more points than the picture gives him credit for.

Anyway, Black has a clever play to pick up one point. I would not expect a beginner to find it. Even Ed might overlook it.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon May 07, 2018 7:43 pm

Joe621 wrote:To think that a month ago the only liberty I knew of was the statue of liberty

Ohhenri Patorikku wrote:Give me liberties, or give me death!

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon May 07, 2018 8:54 pm

Hi Joe, You're welcome.

the only atari I knew of was the joy stick game system

Nolan Bushnell was a Go fan; thus the company name.

Ahh so that how you're so quick to reply using diagrams

Not quick at all: only 1 index finger tapping on a tiny iPhone5 !

Joe621 · Post by **Joe621** » Tue May 08, 2018 3:28 pm

EdLee wrote:Nolan Bushnell was a Go fan; thus the company name.

Well that explains it!

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