5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:46 am

The 5-3 move seems to be no longer a valid opening move option according to ELF.
What do you think?

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:50 am

Evaluations by ELF:
(sorry for the colour swap)

Bojanic · Post by **Bojanic** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:53 am

Yaaay!
Death to those 20+ moves josekis!

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:42 am

Of course your pesky opponent might not cooperate! e.g. in 3rd var what if block on side (o17) instead of the simple p16 compromise? natural q15 could get complicated.

drmwc · Post by **drmwc** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:04 am

I normally do this - surely it's better than the extension?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c My move. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another idea for W involves a ladder, and looks bad for W when the ladder works for B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Ladder. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 4 5 0 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 7 O X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 1 8 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X 2 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

W can compromise, but the promising looking cut at a will get caught in a geta:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Another continuation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 9 6 . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 O 7 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . O X 2 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:15 am

If you're going to claim joseki, I want to see at least 10K rollouts for at least the top three options. Preferably the top five.

And, because even Elf has blind spots, you gotta consider the human suggestions.

Edit: And I want to see play on an empty board. I. e.,

is on a 3-5 point.

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:40 am

@drmwc (thanks for your input)
added your first variation, more to come

: drmwc1.jpg (154.31 KiB) Viewed 21909 times

: drmwc2.jpg (162.5 KiB) Viewed 21909 times

further Variation:

: drmwc3.jpg (159.96 KiB) Viewed 21909 times

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:49 am

@Bill

And, because even Elf has blind spots, you gotta consider the human suggestions.

This is the plan

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:59 am

@drmwc

continuation (only 4 attachments possible in one post)

: drmwc4.jpg (160.38 KiB) Viewed 21908 times

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:04 am

@Uberdude

(more to come)

: uber1.jpg (154.85 KiB) Viewed 21908 times

: uber2.jpg (162.55 KiB) Viewed 21854 times

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:02 pm

Please also consider these plays.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc 2 space pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc AlphaGo likes this pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also this play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Outer attachment $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And these tenukies.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Tenuki I $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Tenuki II $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:37 pm

It's hamete time:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm6 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

A few moves later Elf thinks its winning with 80% (it only considers pull back for white after cut):

: 5-3 hamete.PNG (226.89 KiB) Viewed 21900 times

I play ladder atari and now I'm winning. Haha, tricked you Elf! Too much depth (it gives a 31 move principal variation after cut), not enough breadth of reading.

: 5-3 ooops ladder.png (255.06 KiB) Viewed 21900 times

P.S. I'm now letting it think more about if it wants to cut, at 100k stills wants to with 77.9% …

P.P.S I checked with LZ #150, it doesn't want to push out but just capture the stone directly, but if you make it push it doesn't want to cut after white block but just defend again. So we can see LZ better than LeelaElf at ladders again.

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:17 pm

Updated 5-3 "Joseki" according to ELF:

(Thanks for your input: drmwc, Bill, Uberdude.)

I stay by my word for now. The 5-3 opening move is very questionable today.

Who is afraid of the rusty 5-3?
I play 3-3 and I am not afraid!

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:20 pm

@Uberdude

I use a different board (Kim Ilwan 9p vs Cho Heyeon 9p, four moves) as starting point and ELF suggests this response.

: Uberdudehamete.jpg (160.2 KiB) Viewed 21873 times

And on your board ELF suggests this move.

: Uberdude hamete2.jpg (159.5 KiB) Viewed 21870 times

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:36 am

Life In 19x19

5-3 Joseki according to ELF

5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF

Re: 5-3 Joseki according to ELF