How does everybody else avoid weaknesses?

Fedya · #1

Here's another recent game in which my opponent found one weakness after another in my position, including a couple that look like they should be overplays (both invasions on the bottom and the top left). Whenever I attack what looks like it should be my opponent's weakness, it turns out not to be so weak.

BlindGroup · #2

I'm struggling with similar issues. So, I'm curious to see what the stronger players think. That said, I didn't think your response to :b17:

was unreasonable. I don't think you have enough support in the area to kill it. So, you either need to deny it a base (as you did) or force it to live small on the bottom. And forcing the group to run in order to harass the group on the left seems reasonable. The move that I'm wondering about is :w22:

. I feel like this move works if it is possible to net the running group with something like A. What about a move like B or maybe C instead? The idea being to isolate the black stone at C10.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Out of curiosity, what moves did you consider after :b17:

and why did you pick :w18:

?

explo · #3

I don't think you had as many weakness as you think you had.

10: I like your move (or playing around the lower left corner) more than splitting at R11. It's more positive and neither of black enclosure primarily wants to develop towards the left side.

20: I thought the purpose of this move was to make miai of H5 and D7, but 22 didn't make any point and allowed black to defend on both sides.

32: Would black M2 be that severe? The descent at O2 threatens to lay waste of the corner.

40: I'm not good enough to tell you if blocking at C18 is better, but is there any reason not to play F17 over your move?

70: Very passive. Your stones around H15 are very strong, you can fight instead.

89 and 90: ?? You would scold DDKs for playing such moves. Black used a second there, and you used two.

140: Why not H7? Then it's a very hopeless capturing race between H4 and G4.

nasdaq · #4

I've put in some comments in the SGF up to move 57, how to deal with those overplays.

The main thing is to surround the opponent if they invade, make them live small and the influence you get is worth so much more so early in the game.
It wont make points straight away but eventually it will be usefull in other ways.

Such as:
driving groups towards your thickness
using the thickness to attack weak groups
joining up areas of influence to create a bigger moyo that may become partial territory later

bernds · #5

This honestly doesn't look like such a bad game for White. At the end it looked like it could have gone either way.

:w20:

seems a little soft. As a minimum I'd try to consider E6 instead of F6. Try to have more than one purpose - attack Black's invasion, but do it by trying to lean on the stronger side. The same applies to your followup at F8. It's just kind of out there doing very little.

With :w24:

you're just pushing Black out. If there is no profitable way to continue the attack, recognize this and play elsewhere. Or try a capping move, to try to make sense of the previous ones.

I don't like :w26:

at R11. It just invites Black to defend the corner while attacking your stone. Why not R13? But I'm almost more tempted to put some backbone in White's somewhat loose top side position with C14.

:b31:

does look hard to answer. Just M4, perhaps, but I can't see immediately where this would go. Black might just force from one of the sides to make you add more stones, making your group inefficient - too many stones clustered in a small area. You could think about trying a counterattack with R3 to add confusion to the game, or perhaps Q5 first. However, in the variation you added, you could prevent a connection to the left with a J2 hane, threatening to connect underneath yourself.

:w38:

at C16 does leave weaknesses and invites the sort of attack you saw in the game. F16 again looks soft - think about pressing at F17. Or consider an invasion at C12 to get more stones in the area before deciding how to handle Black's invasion. Give your opponent something to think about rather than being passive.

After :b59:

, are you aware of the aji you have in the corner?

is incredibly small. K15 would capture more stones in a squeeze.

At some point, near :w94:

, did you notice that you had the possibility for a splitting attack? F12 leaves holes, it seems like you could have played G12 first and then used the wall to attack the lower group. Or play W E12, B G12, W E11 to threaten the sequence of ataris on the side while making Black connect on valueless points (but that leaves your three stones in the center weak so it depends on how much you think you can get on the side).

W110 - why not hane at E9? Give Black some shape problems. Threaten something.

At W140 and 142 - why not just capture a stone? Gives you more liberties and connects your groups.

Tryss · #6

For

, I would descend at O2. It's not exactly sente, but if he run with his M3 stone, the corner will be surrounded.

And the bonus is that a running fight with 4 groups is always fun :rambo:

Fedya · #7

Answering questions more or less in order:

For :w18:

, the only other move I saw was J4, which I didn't like because I felt it would allow Black to make easy life on the side and leave me with nothing.

On :w22:

I didn't see any way to attack on the left without getting split and getting a bunch of stones killed.

For me the problem with :b33:

at M2 isn't just that Black connects, but that it leaves the White group above it struggling for a way to get two eyes. White could try to connect to R8, but Black should be able to keep that split.

On :w40:

, I didn't even see F17. :oops:

was on M18 because I felt that otherwise Black would connect under to Q17, and I'd be stuck with little territory and a lot of thickness doing nothing. Influence/thickness never seems to work for me.

I didn't play 140 at H7 because I was worried about the stones in the lower left.

I didn't see any aji in the upper left either.

Bill Spight · #8

I'll take a look at the game, but first a word about avoiding weaknesses in general. When I was about 7 kyu I did not avoid weaknesses, I created them.

I lost up to three groups per game. When I attacked, the tables often turned and I was the one to lose groups or stones.

Now, I did learn how to stop creating so many weaknesses. This way may not work for everyone, but it did for me. What I did was to sacrifice stones.

That may sound paradoxical, but my sacrificing stones I was able to build strong walls and groups.

Another thing. Often the problem is not so much creating weaknesses for yourself as making the opponent's stones strong. That happens a lot as players attach to or press against their opponent's stones.

Bill Spight · #9

You have gotten a number of excellent replies. Much food for thought.

First, let me say that in this game your problem was not so much creating or not protecting weaknesses, as not taking advantage of your opponent's weaknesses.

Also, your opponent is a very good fighter for a 7 kyu. Play him more often. You can learn a lot from him.

A few comments for now, probably more later.

Fedya wrote:

For

, the only other move I saw was J4, which I didn't like because I felt it would allow Black to make easy life on the side and leave me with nothing.

Right.

is good. Probably the only play.

Quote:

On

I didn't see any way to attack on the left without getting split and getting a bunch of stones killed.

Let's go back to :w20:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Divide and conquer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . B . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . B O . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is in general the right idea. You keep the :bc:

stones divided from stone that might help them. In Wilcox's terms, you break a sector line. But there is a better play, one that frequently comes up with this joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Divide and conquer, II $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That move is this press. If Black ignores it and jumps out, :w22:

cuts off the Black corner. You can probably kill it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Topping the tree $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . 3 . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is the usual defense, but now :w22:

tops the tree, creating a severe attack.

Back to the game, with the one space jump. Here is how to attack on the left without "getting a bunch of stones killed."

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Divide and conquer, III $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 a . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and

threaten the corner. Then :w26:

tops the tree, yielding a strong attack. Later White can come back and fill at "a". But if Black gets that cut in, White will lose only one or two stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Pushing from behind $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . a . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . 3 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . 5 . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

pushes from behind. This is in general a bad idea, like squeezing out the toothpaste. :b25:

runs out, breaking a sector line. Maybe :w26:

should jump out at "a", breaking another sector line, too. But White does not seem to have a very strong attack now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Topping the tree, II $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Instead,

can peep, making the Black group heavy, and then :w26:

tops the tree. This is a strong attack.

Quote:

Influence/thickness never seems to work for me.

That's because you don't attack enough. It's not so much that you do not attack very well. You are a 7 kyu. You are going to make mistakes, like everybody else.

You do not attack enough. Besides, if you attack more, you will get better at it.

Moi wrote:

It is better to have attacked and lost, than never to have attacked at all.

Quote:

I didn't play 140 at H7 because I was worried about the stones in the lower left.

You see hobgoblins. Don't cower under the covers. Slay them. :rambo:

Quote:

I didn't see any aji in the upper left either.

More hobgoblins. Black made a move in the corner and you gave up. Even if you did not see the excellent tesuji that bernds found, you should have fought for the corner at :w54:

. Courage, mon vieux!

Danto wrote:

De l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace!

Bonne chance!

Tryss · **#10**

Food for tought :

LZ #153 eval/choices of moves 18, 20, 22 and 24 at ~100k playouts

jlt · **#11**

So the toothpaste move :w24:

is preferred by LeelaZero ??

EdLee · **#12**

Tryss,

jlt,

Bill Spight · **#13**

Tryss wrote:

Food for tought :

LZ #153 eval/choices of moves 18, 20, 22 and 24 at ~100k playouts

Thanks.

BTW, I was aware of the D-09 (shoulder blow) as an option, but did not have a brief explanation, as opposed to the usual plays.

What does Leela Zero recommend for :w26:

? Thanks.

Tryss · **#14**

Bill Spight wrote:

What does Leela Zero recommend for :w26:

? Thanks.

K8 or D9, they are the only moves LZ truly consider and are mostly equal (61.3% for D9 with 51k playouts, 61.5% for K8 with 130k playouts, other moves have less than 2k playouts)

LZ expected continuation for K8 :

LZ expected continuation for D9 :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Just change the move order $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 7 . 0 . 6 . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 8 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 X . O . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , 4 O . X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . 5 . . X O . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 But then tenuki to the top right corner $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . 3 1 X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 5 2 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . X . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . X . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . X O . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm19 And invade $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O X 2 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . X . . . . . . . , 6 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . X X . O . X . O . . . . . 9 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . X O . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Obviously, that's probably not what would happens during the game, but it's what LZ would expect. And I think the plan here can make sense to humans.

PS : this is with network #153, another network could have very different tastes.

Uberdude · **#15**

- k17 was much better than r11. r11 isn't even a particularly good place if the right side is the correct place to play (which it won't be for a while: larger gaps elsewhere).
- But even better than k17 would be c6 (or another shimari there). When you make the Kobayashi opening formation with k4 it is normal for black to approach the lower left corner, c6 distant approach being the classic theory. So this is a big clue of what's a good move if your opponent doesn't play there (so long as he didn't play something that is super sente, namely a contact move or almost contact move like kosumi approach i.e. 3-3 invasion at top left, even knight approach is not sente enough and tenuki to make the c6 shimari is fine).
- Some pragmatic advice, stop playing f4 knight move when your 3-4 gets high approached. Play c5 attach under in >70% of cases, it should be your default move. I'm not saying it is the best move for strong players that often (though actually it might seems to be a lesson from bots), but for Fedya who doesn't see/exploit his opponent's weaknesses but worries a lot about his own it is a good choice. It is simple, gets you a nice big corner, and doesn't give your opponent a formation you need to invade and fight to get a reasonable result. f4 and even more so e2 is an old bad joseki (very rare in strong play nowadays) and one of those patient thick moves that is only good if you can use it to fight later to make up for its territorial deficit. In this game that means separating c10 from d5 and attacking them if black doesn't spend a move there after e2. So don't put yourself in debt like this, particularly if you are a a bad debt collector, just take the corner cash when you can. (nasdaq's e5 is a fine move too, but not as simple)

How does everybody else avoid weaknesses?

Who is online