Kirby's Study Journal
-
Uberdude
- Judan
- Posts: 6727
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
- Rank: UK 4 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Uberdude 4d
- OGS: Uberdude 7d
- Location: Cambridge, UK
- Has thanked: 436 times
- Been thanked: 3718 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
If you cut at g17 you should expect white to capture your stone. Yes, you get e16 in sente, but you made white stronger (white failed to defend on the top side so you had an attack at j16/j17 but instead let white fix this without spending a move). The situations where white ataris from underneath are typically with a white stone already at k17 so it's not 2nd line crawling for long and in that case preserving the threat of the cut is important. The b14 slide was my first feeling in that position: you aren't really scared of the cut as then you can counter-cut at g17. But I'd g14 hane not f14 extend.
-
Kirby
- Honinbo
- Posts: 9553
- Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Kirby
- Tygem: 커비라고해
- Has thanked: 1583 times
- Been thanked: 1707 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Point taken about g17. The slide still feels passive to me, but I guess it's ok.
be immersed
-
Uberdude
- Judan
- Posts: 6727
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
- Rank: UK 4 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Uberdude 4d
- OGS: Uberdude 7d
- Location: Cambridge, UK
- Has thanked: 436 times
- Been thanked: 3718 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Yes, it is a bit passive, but on the plus makes sure of eyespace for corner and prevents white's eyespace on left. If you want Leela Zero to not be so passive you could change the board position to not be handicap so it needs to play the best moves to win (there's also a dynamic komi version that's better for handicap games). So I did this here and now it likes that centre move:Kirby wrote:The slide still feels passive to me, but I guess it's ok.
- Kirby no handi.PNG (690.89 KiB) Viewed 10674 times
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I know what you mean. Such plays often seem passive or slow. But the key, as I learned from Sakata, is that they are dual purpose, making life or at least eye potential for your stones while taking away eye potential for your opponent's stones.Kirby wrote:Point taken about g17. The slide still feels passive to me, but I guess it's ok.
In this case, B-14 makes eye potential for Black while preventing B-15 for White. White B-15 would make eye potential for White while preventing B-14 for Black.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Uberdude
- Judan
- Posts: 6727
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
- Rank: UK 4 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Uberdude 4d
- OGS: Uberdude 7d
- Location: Cambridge, UK
- Has thanked: 436 times
- Been thanked: 3718 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
From a kinda related shape... I'd rather knight move than this kosumi (that did seem weird to me initially), which is common nowadays with this popular bot-era joseki:
This one as well as corner eyes has some linking up meaning to the l17 stone. LZ #157 thinks it is indeed the best move here, I didn't check the other ones. Some more: http://ps.waltheri.net/444198
So if top pros are content to play this restrained kosumi when the double approach is low, makes it seem not so bad to do a roomy knight move slide when it's high?
This one as well as corner eyes has some linking up meaning to the l17 stone. LZ #157 thinks it is indeed the best move here, I didn't check the other ones. Some more: http://ps.waltheri.net/444198
So if top pros are content to play this restrained kosumi when the double approach is low, makes it seem not so bad to do a roomy knight move slide when it's high?
-
Kirby
- Honinbo
- Posts: 9553
- Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Kirby
- Tygem: 커비라고해
- Has thanked: 1583 times
- Been thanked: 1707 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Interesting. On my computer, LZ thought white should answer on the left over defending on top, though, that was with4 stone handicap. Also, my computer doesn't have high end hardware- I don't even have a GPU.Uberdude wrote:Yes, it is a bit passive, but on the plus makes sure of eyespace for corner and prevents white's eyespace on left. If you want Leela Zero to not be so passive you could change the board position to not be handicap so it needs to play the best moves to win (there's also a dynamic komi version that's better for handicap games). So I did this here and now it likes that centre move:Kirby wrote:The slide still feels passive to me, but I guess it's ok.
LZ thinks white should answer this at the top side (because it appreciates the power of a black attack there), but your pesky human opponents with fighting spirit will probably not but answer on the left, so it's instructive to see how LZ thinks black should play with me choosing what I think an annoying white player might do guided by LZ's suggestions (it thinks 8 should be at 9, then black b13).
Either way, neither the slide nor this capping move came to mind as a response, so I'm satisfied simply to have those options to think about.
I think my attach and crosscut was an OK concept, but ended in over concentration.
be immersed
-
Kirby
- Honinbo
- Posts: 9553
- Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Kirby
- Tygem: 커비라고해
- Has thanked: 1583 times
- Been thanked: 1707 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
True. My hesitation is probably with having a floating group of stones, but given that the slide takes away white's eyespace, it's probably not that bad since White stays weak, too.Bill Spight wrote:I know what you mean. Such plays often seem passive or slow. But the key, as I learned from Sakata, is that they are dual purpose, making life or at least eye potential for your stones while taking away eye potential for your opponent's stones.Kirby wrote:Point taken about g17. The slide still feels passive to me, but I guess it's ok.
In this case, B-14 makes eye potential for Black while preventing B-15 for White. White B-15 would make eye potential for White while preventing B-14 for Black.
be immersed
-
Kirby
- Honinbo
- Posts: 9553
- Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Kirby
- Tygem: 커비라고해
- Has thanked: 1583 times
- Been thanked: 1707 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Yes, seems slow. Though I suppose knight's move would be cut off in these examples.Uberdude wrote:From a kinda related shape... I'd rather knight move than this kosumi (that did seem weird to me initially), which is common nowadays with this popular bot-era joseki:
This one as well as corner eyes has some linking up meaning to the l17 stone. LZ #157 thinks it is indeed the best move here, I didn't check the other ones.
Some more: http://ps.waltheri.net/444198
So if top pros are content to play this restrained kosumi when the double approach is low, makes it seem not so bad to do a roomy knight move slide when it's high?
be immersed
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I would not even call the Black stones floating. After the Black slide, if any stones are floating it's the White stones.Kirby wrote:True. My hesitation is probably with having a floating group of stones, but given that the slide takes away white's eyespace, it's probably not that bad since White stays weak, too.Bill Spight wrote:I know what you mean. Such plays often seem passive or slow. But the key, as I learned from Sakata, is that they are dual purpose, making life or at least eye potential for your stones while taking away eye potential for your opponent's stones.Kirby wrote:Point taken about g17. The slide still feels passive to me, but I guess it's ok.
In this case, B-14 makes eye potential for Black while preventing B-15 for White. White B-15 would make eye potential for White while preventing B-14 for Black.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
One of the oldest ideas in go is that of a base. You can see even in the oldest surviving game records players forming a base with a two space extension on the side. However, AlphaGo did not bother much with such bases, if at all. (I do not recall it making one, but it might have.) I did note that in skirmishes such as these, it did make plays concerned with eyes, such as this kosumi. I wonder if the idea of a base in go is going to undergo a revision.Uberdude wrote:From a kinda related shape... I'd rather knight move than this kosumi (that did seem weird to me initially), which is common nowadays with this popular bot-era joseki:
This one as well as corner eyes has some linking up meaning to the l17 stone. LZ #157 thinks it is indeed the best move here, I didn't check the other ones. Some more: http://ps.waltheri.net/444198
So if top pros are content to play this restrained kosumi when the double approach is low, makes it seem not so bad to do a roomy knight move slide when it's high?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Uberdude
- Judan
- Posts: 6727
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
- Rank: UK 4 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Uberdude 4d
- OGS: Uberdude 7d
- Location: Cambridge, UK
- Has thanked: 436 times
- Been thanked: 3718 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
How about http://www.alphago-games.com/view/event ... 21/move/36Bill Spight wrote: One of the oldest ideas in go is that of a base. You can see even in the oldest surviving game records players forming a base with a two space extension on the side. However, AlphaGo did not bother much with such bases, if at all. (I do not recall it making one, but it might have.)
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Thanks. That's a standard 2 space base.Uberdude wrote:How about http://www.alphago-games.com/view/event ... 21/move/36Bill Spight wrote: One of the oldest ideas in go is that of a base. You can see even in the oldest surviving game records players forming a base with a two space extension on the side. However, AlphaGo did not bother much with such bases, if at all. (I do not recall it making one, but it might have.)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Kirby
- Honinbo
- Posts: 9553
- Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Kirby
- Tygem: 커비라고해
- Has thanked: 1583 times
- Been thanked: 1707 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I stayed later at work today, because today is go club day. After exploring some perf issues for my job, I walked downtown Ann Arbor to go to the go club. Well, I grabbed some food to eat, first. I probably didn't need to, because I was already a bit full from lunch. I don't need to eat as much. Then I went to the Espresso Royale cafe and got a decaf coffee. I'm not a big fan of decaf coffee, but I'm getting older, and I have a hard time sleeping when I have non-decaf coffee after 6pm or so. I was the first go club person there, so I grabbed a board, and did some problems by laying out the stones. I don't typically do that, since most of the time I just read problems from a book. It was kind of fun.
After a little while, the 4k-ish guy that I met a couple of weeks ago came in, and wanted to play even. I agreed, and we played this game:
I didn't feel much pressure for the entire game. The biggest area that I regret during the game was this position: I think it might make sense to at least break his shape: Not sure, though.
After a little while, the 4k-ish guy that I met a couple of weeks ago came in, and wanted to play even. I agreed, and we played this game:
I didn't feel much pressure for the entire game. The biggest area that I regret during the game was this position: I think it might make sense to at least break his shape: Not sure, though.
be immersed
-
Kirby
- Honinbo
- Posts: 9553
- Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Kirby
- Tygem: 커비라고해
- Has thanked: 1583 times
- Been thanked: 1707 times
Re: Kirby's Study Journal
After that game, "Don" came in. Don's about 5k or so, I think. I remember playing him when I lived in Ann Arbor like 10 years ago. He's exactly the same. It's like I've gone through a time warp.
Here's the game:
Biggest part I regret in this game is the cross-cut, where I didn't think at all, and things could have gone much worse for me:
Here's the game:
Biggest part I regret in this game is the cross-cut, where I didn't think at all, and things could have gone much worse for me:
be immersed
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
fought a little bit.