Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?

[Chaosrider2808]

OK, that DOES look like an interesting program (ELF).

Cost?

Thx!

TCS

[Katharsys]

Dont learn joseki.

Review your games with Leela Zero / ELF and learn fuseki instead. This way you will learn the correct josekis for the whole board positions. You also will have to learn only the relevant josekis for the quite small number of good recent fusekis (and some refutations for the bad ones that should not be played anymore. )

How are you supposed to learn from a program that just simply tells you what the better move is and plays out it's own sequence?

[EdLee]

How are you supposed to learn from a program that just simply tells you what the better move is and plays out its own sequence?

Different people learn differently. Example: in Asia ( China, Japan, Korea ), little kids used to hang around high-dan people, and they would improve quite quickly. The internet has made this even more accessible. Now we can have a super-human engine at home.

For some people, some human guidance ( together with a super-human engine ) is still beneficial.

[Katharsys]

How are you supposed to learn from a program that just simply tells you what the better move is and plays out its own sequence?

Different people learn differently. Example: in Asia ( China, Japan, Korea ), little kids used to hang around high-dan people, and they would improve quite quickly. The internet has made this even more accessible. Now we can have a super-human engine at home.

For some people, some human guidance ( together with a super-human engine ) is still beneficial.

I see your point, but I don't feel it answered the "how do you learn from it" part.

[Bill Spight]

Dont learn joseki.

Review your games with Leela Zero / ELF and learn fuseki instead. This way you will learn the correct josekis for the whole board positions. You also will have to learn only the relevant josekis for the quite small number of good recent fusekis (and some refutations for the bad ones that should not be played anymore. )

How are you supposed to learn from a program that just simply tells you what the better move is and plays out it's own sequence?

At the SDK level people are playing much less randomly than rank beginners, but most of them have gotten into ruts, bad habits such that they actually are attracted to inferior plays. (This happens to almost everybody, it's not a big deal.) So at that level it can be a great help to find out what good moves are that you never even thought about, and what moves are bad that you thought were obvious. OC, it would be even better to have a human teacher who plays as well as Leela or Elf or AQ, but bots are going to raise the general level of play tremendously.

You can observe a lot by just watching.

[Bill Spight]

How are you supposed to learn from a program that just simply tells you what the better move is and plays out its own sequence?

Different people learn differently. Example: in Asia ( China, Japan, Korea ), little kids used to hang around high-dan people, and they would improve quite quickly. The internet has made this even more accessible. Now we can have a super-human engine at home.

For some people, some human guidance ( together with a super-human engine ) is still beneficial.

I see your point, but I don't feel it answered the "how do you learn from it" part.

Watch pre-school children. They are the best learners in the world.

[jlt]

I don't think adults can just imitate pre-school children and learn at the same pace. Young children can listen to a story a few times and then repeat it word by word. Give them a picture of 50 dinosaurs, and after a short time they will be able to recognize them all. More generally, young children are much better than adults at memorizing data without structure. I suspect that's the reason why children generally learn go with less effort than adults: their brain just registers good shapes and good sequences.

Adults prefer to learn structured information. However, in go, a large part of the learning process consists in rote memorization. We need to put good shapes and good sequences in our brain, and take out bad shapes and bad sequences. Children can do that efficiently; adults can still do that but are slower.

[EdLee]

Hi jlt,

Yes. Off topic:

Children ( before teenage years ) can learn multiple languages fluently, natively, with no accents. ( I don't know the world record for the max number of natively fluent accent-less languages a child can speak... )
Try it with adults, say over age 35, to learn a completely foreign language.
( Especially if they had zero previous exposure to anything other than their native language. )

[Bill Spight]

I don't think adults can just imitate pre-school children and learn at the same pace.

You are right.

Adults prefer to learn structured information.

Yeah, well, the information to be gleaned from top bots is structured. It lacks verbal explanation, however, and that is a problem for adults.

Children pick things up easily. Adults also pick things up, but less easily. Still, we do pick things up.

One important way that children learn is through play. And as adults we can also play around with go positions. Allow me to quote a chess grandmaster on playing around.

It really doesn’t matter what you study, the important thing is to use this as a training ground for thinking rather than trying to assimilate a mind-numbing amount of information. In these days of a zillion different chess products this message seems to be quite lost, and indeed most people seem to want books that tell them what to do. The reality is that you’ve got to move the pieces around the board and play with the position. Who does that? Amateurs don’t, GMs do.

(Emphasis mine) From http://rlpchessblog.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... rtesy.html