BlindGroup Study Journal

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:50 am

A relatively minor at this level, but commonly applicable and important principle: black 18 should extend so you can get p2 sente too, a classic example of adding a stone before sacrificing it to get more forcing moves. Though if you did that you wouldn't give white the opportunity to "punish" your mistake, but too early, at p2

.

26 can attach at c17 first and then your pressing sequence is better when d16 is atari (though W may resist).

Also a comment on 68 double hane: in the abstract it is the instinct of a strong player to double hane here rather than play the crude atari so beloved by kyu players at s12, so well done on that. However, in this situation s12 is actually better. Why? Because if you double hane white should atari and capture it at s14. You can then take the 2 stones but it's gote and white jumps to the 3-3 and scoops out a fair sized chunk of your moyo. Because the white group at bottom right is super alive the 2 stones are fairly small. Normally cut first is bad because it gives white more eyes (not important here, super alive already) and loses a little in endgame (true here) but prevent white going for the trade of breaking the upper right is much more important.

BlindGroup · Post by **BlindGroup** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:12 am

Knotwilg wrote:Winning by 37,5 must have been a sign to you that you played more powerful go than your opponent. In particular the formation of a moyo in the upper right and turning it into territory was the key to an easy victory. As such we can probably make two recommendations for the players in this game: 1) if anyone needs to take handicap, it's your opponent 2) even so, the opponent should have tried harder to win. At no point I saw an attempt to make a comeback from the initial 2 stones, on the contrary the gap kept on widening.

That must just be IGS ranking weirdness. I was also a bit surprised by the passive play. But oddly enough, if you look at this player's "average" rank over the last year, they probably should have given me 3 stones...

Knotwilg wrote: 116: if you read out the bottom connectivity, then that's impressive, but even so coming back to fix this weakness is probably the biggest move on the board.

I have no idea what you are talking about regarding the bottom connectivity. So, I'm going to say "no" I didn't read that out.

I was trying to head off white R14. Did I miss something?

And thanks for the comments. It's great to know that my intuitions regarding the value of the influence in the fuseki (with the handicap stones) were correct. I am slowly getting this influence thing...

BlindGroup · Post by **BlindGroup** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:17 am

Uberdude wrote:A relatively minor at this level, but commonly applicable and important principle: black 18 should extend so you can get p2 sente too, a classic example of adding a stone before sacrificing it to get more forcing moves. Though if you did that you wouldn't give white the opportunity to "punish" your mistake, but too early, at p2 .

Thanks for the comments. The last two made sense to me, but here I don't quite understand what you mean by "extend". What would black play at 18 to do that? I suspect that I just don't completely understand the term.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:21 am

BlindGroup wrote:but here I don't quite quit understand what you mean by "extend". What would black play at 18 to do that? I suspect that I just don't completely understand the term.

Move 18 should be r2 instead of p4, it's extending from r3.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:45 am

BlindGroup wrote:
Uberdude wrote:A relatively minor at this level, but commonly applicable and important principle: black 18 should extend so you can get p2 sente too, a classic example of adding a stone before sacrificing it to get more forcing moves.
Thanks for the comments. The last two made sense to me, but here I don't quite understand what you mean by "extend". What would black play at 18 to do that? I suspect that I just don't completely understand the term.

Extend is ambiguous in English, referring to two different kinds of play.

In this case Uberdude could have said, descend, which is more specific.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:35 am

BlindGroup wrote:
Knotwilg wrote: 116: if you read out the bottom connectivity, then that's impressive, but even so coming back to fix this weakness is probably the biggest move on the board.
I have no idea what you are talking about regarding the bottom connectivity. So, I'm going to say "no" I didn't read that out. I was trying to head off white R14. Did I miss something?

What I meant:

After White 115 many players including me would instinctively answer with the good shape connection at O5. When you didn't play there but took the important connection at the upper right, which you so bravely left after the double hane at 68, I promptly checked the cuts at P4 and P6. Both can still be answered by the stylish O5. If White plays O5 himself, then Black can play the ugly (?) double connection at P5. Next the White snake can push and poke but to no avail. I found that quite impressive reading and decision making.

BlindGroup · Post by **BlindGroup** » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:03 pm

Odd game. The first joseki went sideways, and I struggled to keep my opponent from getting more than she should have. Ended up sacrificing stones in the fuseki and early middle game for influence, and it worked. I even managed to hold my own in an important fight.

Edit: Posted the correct game record.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:08 am

Move 11 you say "BG: My opponents last move was *I think* not joseki. Wasn't entirely sure what to do here, but this seems right." White's vut 2 moves ago was not joseki. Did you think about capturing the stone?

BlindGroup · Post by **BlindGroup** » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:06 am

I decided to run this through Leela and got the following win probability graph:

Seems like there are three places where Leela thinks I made mistakes before I came back with the kill:

1. Moves 45-51: I was playing in the right area, but just not quite the right moves. I still had a chance to keep white from connecting at move 45 with a sequence that I think I could have seen. Starting with move 47, Leela agrees that I need to make shape to save the group, but not surprisingly, I wasn't able to do it quite the way she would have done

At my skill level, I'll focus on the fact that I had the right idea and consider that a win.

2. Move 61: This is something I should have seen. I undervalued the importance of keeping white separated. Leela prefers A. I considered it, but I didn't evaluate it properly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X a O X O . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X O X . B , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O O O X X , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

3. Moves 83-91. At 83, I have the right direction of play, but Leela feels like my move should have been in a slightly different place. The real mistake was 85-91. I realized this was a mistake in my review, but Leela saw ways to keep white separated even at move 91. I think these moves are within my reach and I should have thought of them.

My move 91:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O . O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O O X X X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X O X O X , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X X X . B . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O X O O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O , . . . . X X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O O O X X , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Leela prefers the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cB $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O . O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O O X X X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X O X O X 2 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X X X 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O X O O O 3 5 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . 1 O X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O , . . . . X X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O O O X X , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

BlindGroup · Post by **BlindGroup** » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:21 am

Uberdude wrote:Move 11 you say "BG: My opponents last move was *I think* not joseki. Wasn't entirely sure what to do here, but this seems right." White's vut 2 moves ago was not joseki.

I looked it up, and yes,

is considered a trick move. I guess I just remembered seeing this before and thought it was joseki.

Uberdude wrote:Did you think about capturing the stone?

I agree. I considered it at the time, but I had trouble reading out the possible sequences. FWIW, Leela prefers your move, but mine was her second choice. The difference in win probability, however, is a meager 0.08pp.

Now that I've looked at it, I probably would have captured. It's a sharper move that seems to offer more opportunities for my opponent to make a mistake. Mine while officially not as bad, does not offer the same opportunities for my opponents who never play as perfectly as Leela expects.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:55 am

An impressive game.

It shows a good feel for the game. You need to learn some tactical finesse, but you will.

Main focus: Avoid strengthening your opponent.

BlindGroup · Post by **BlindGroup** » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:22 am

Bill Spight wrote:An impressive game. It shows a good feel for the game. You need to learn some tactical finesse, but you will.

Main focus: Avoid strengthening your opponent.

Bill, thanks as always for your comments (and the encouragement!).

Question on the review motivating move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I agree with your comment that this both starts a base for my stones and prevents white from getting one. That was the original motivation. So, that's good. Did you mean to suggest though that my original move is better than A? After the game it seemed like surrounding white and forcing him to live in the corner might be better.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:11 am

BlindGroup wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:An impressive game. It shows a good feel for the game. You need to learn some tactical finesse, but you will.

Main focus: Avoid strengthening your opponent.
Bill, thanks as always for your comments (and the encouragement!).

Question on the review motivating move:

$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I agree with your comment that this both starts a base for my stones and prevents white from getting one. That was the original motivation. So, that's good. Did you mean to suggest though that my original move is better than A? After the game it seemed like surrounding white and forcing him to live in the corner might be better.

I think it is better than "a", for two reasons. First, suppose that Black plays at "a".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , 5 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This diagram may not represent actual play, take it as a rough indication. After

White will live in the corner, making a fair sized territory, but taking gote, OC. Next, Black will make a nice moyo on the bottom side, and then White will take the last big place on the right side. (The top is big, but second tier.) Black is still ahead, thanks to White's earlier mistakes. But with

Black has pretty well shot his wad.

It is not just that your play makes a base for your stones while preventing two eyes in the corner for White, it is that you get a sustained attack. In that attack you should be able to solidify several points on the bottom side and keep sente to take the last big place on the right side.

That's my judgement. OC, I haven't played millions of games. What does Leela think?

Edit: Also consider this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Bad shape $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

After

in the game,

was forced to make bad shape. That's a clue that this sequence is not good for White.

BlindGroup · Post by **BlindGroup** » Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:59 am

Bill Spight wrote:
BlindGroup wrote:That's my judgement. OC, I haven't played millions of games. What does Leela think?

Leela did not like my move. Here are her moves in order of preference:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c b . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a X . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The aim with all of these moves is to seal white in. Leela seems them as effectively equivalent in terms of winrate and thinks they are 7.2pp better than my move. The intent of B-D seem clear, but even for A, Leela predicts the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cB $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . 9 7 8 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X O X . 6 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:21 pm

Thanks.

What sequence does Leela project after our play?

Life In 19x19

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