dutchie's journal

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
Post Reply
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Hi Tryss,
Yes, LZ (#153) consider this a -6% error.
Thanks! So almost "noise"... :)
...C18 is considered a -9.5% mistake !
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Does LZ like :black: (a) hane better ?

( There are numerous examples of top pros losing games after the bot assessed their winrates over 90%... so even a 9.5% drop could be "noise" for humans... :) But, at least entertaining to know. )

Thanks!
Top
Tryss
Lives in gote
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 1:07 pm
Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: dutchie's journal

Post by Tryss »

At this point of the game, a -6% error is not noise, it's significant. Not a huge mistake, but still noticeable...

And yes, LZ want to hane at your (a) instead of the descent
( There are numerous examples of top pros losing games after the bot assessed their winrates over 90%... so even a 9.5% drop could be "noise" for humans... :) But, at least entertaining to know. )
I mean, if it was the true winrate, pro would lose 1/10th of the games that were assessed win over 90% in their favour. 1/10th is not a small number. Roll two dices, and they'll lose the game if you roll 11 or 12 points :mrgreen:
Top
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: dutchie's journal

Post by Bill Spight »

Elf generates more extreme winrates than Leela Zero, but yes, an estimated 6% difference is hardly noise, even for Elf. For Leela Zero my guess is that it indicates a serious error.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
Tryss
Lives in gote
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 1:07 pm
Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: dutchie's journal

Post by Tryss »

My current scale with LZ (#153) :

-0.5% to -2.5% : inaccuracy
-2.5% to -5% : error
-5% to -10% : significant error
over -10% : critical error (not necessarily game losing).

Of course, that depend on the situation. Toward the end of a very close game, yose inaccuracy can drop your winrate by 50% :lol:
But maybe we should move this conversation elsewhere :oops:
Top
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Hi Tryss, Bill :)
Hi Tryss, thanks. There's an existing thread or even threads about winrates. Anyway, my understanding ( or rather, my gut feeling :) ) about super-human bots' winrates is they are for bots. Human brains are different; that's why the bots are at super-human levels.
I mean, if it was the true winrate, pro would lose 1/10th of the games that were assessed win over 90% in their favour.
And who has done the research on this ? I wouldn't be surprised if this is true. To be clear: the 90% ( or say, over 75% ) winrate is for a particular moment in the game. Obviously the moment matters. :) If the 90% is assessed at move 349 out of a 350-move game, that's very different from at move 70 out of a 350-move game. In this example, it's :w10: .

Thanks, Tryss! I have to get one of them bots... :blackeye:

Live example: Iyama v. Cho, post 282: human winrates all over the place (80%+ and ups and downs...)
Top
dutchie
Dies in gote
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:14 am
Rank: KGS 9k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: dutchie
Tygem: dutchie
IGS: dutchie
OGS: dutchie
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: dutchie's journal

Post by dutchie »

I'm back! I've been playing off and on while I haven't been posting, and I have somehow managed to attain 7k on OGS. I think that's mostly because I'm higher ranked at correspondence than live, but I'll take it.

However, I just got destroyed by a 5k. A lot of my groups ended up dying, and there were definitely a few brain fades in there. My main question is how should I deal with W approaching my three stone wall at move 46? The pincer I played seemed obvious, but in the end my group died. I'm not sure if the misread net was the problem, or if I should just run (with P13 or something?).

Also, the OGS AI's win percentage dropped a lot after I played P6. I'm not a site supporter, but that seemed a very natural shape move. Should I be defending the cut at Q5 more directly there, and allowing W to hane?

SGF with general comments attached.

Attachments
20200203-MaximilianPeter.sgf
(4.66 KiB) Downloaded 603 times
Top
User avatar
jlt
Gosei
Posts: 1786
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:59 am
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 495 times

Re: dutchie's journal

Post by jlt »

I explored a bit with Katago. Concerning your wall, your mistake was at move 24. A general principle is to play urgent moves before big moves. You played :b24: at K3, this is big but doesn't threaten anything so is gote. On the other hand, after White played the marked stone, the corner group becomes strong so your 3-stone wall becomes weak in comparison, and needs an extension at one of the points a-d.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . d b . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , c a . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |[/go]
Concerning move 46, Katago wants you to play elsewhere (at H4) but if you want to respond locally, here is a possible sequence with the same idea of pincering, but which secures your group:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 3 . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . 5 . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]
About move 34: I think that the AI doesn't like your move because of the cut at R4 which forces Black to capture the cutting stone at some point. For instance, if White plays at Q2 and Black ignores, this can be very annoying:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 2 . . . |
$$ . . , . . . . O X 1 3 . |
$$ . . X . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . W X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]
Last edited by jlt on Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
Top
dutchie
Dies in gote
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:14 am
Rank: KGS 9k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: dutchie
Tygem: dutchie
IGS: dutchie
OGS: dutchie
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: dutchie's journal

Post by dutchie »

jlt wrote:I explored a bit with Katago. Concerning you wall, your mistake was at move 24. A general principle is to play urgent moves before big moves. You played :b24: at K3, this a big but doesn't threaten anything so is gote. On the other hand, after White played the marked stone, the corner group becomes strong so your 3-stone wall becomes weak in comparison, and needs an extension at one of the points a-d.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . d b . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , c a . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |[/go]
Ah, I see. So if White approaches at a-d without playing the marked stone, then I should attack the corner somehow? I'm not used to the post-AI 3-3 invasion joseki yet.
Top
User avatar
jlt
Gosei
Posts: 1786
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:59 am
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 495 times

Re: dutchie's journal

Post by jlt »

Yes, if White attacks the wall there are several continuations to the corner joseki, you can check josekipedia.com for suggestions. According to Katago, here is a possible sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . X O 7 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |[/go]
So the three Q17 stones are almost dead, but they still have aji, Black gets sente, has taken part of the corner territory and gets potential on the right side.

If you don't like the idea of losing your three stones, you also have some forcing moves to strengthen your wall:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Now the wall is much bigger and cannot be easily attacked
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |[/go]
Another sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc That's a fight
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 7 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |[/go]
Top
Post Reply

Return to “Study Journals”