What do you make of this?

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:07 am

Looking at the continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O 3 . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

versus

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . 4 X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O 5 . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and

in the first diagram (game) and :w1:

and

in the second exert control over the lower centre, which seems to impact the strength of the lower right black group. On the other side, in the game, White could tenuki after :b6:

. My failure to do so is likely the real source of my dissatisfaction. Nevertheless, I think that both variations are playable.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:15 am

I don't think :w5:

in the first one should be a one point jump. Black's corner is sufficiently unsettled that it lets Black sort his problems out so easily doesn't it? Why not just extend?

flOvermind · Post by **flOvermind** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:43 pm

The black corner doesn't really look unsettled to me. Black still has D2 available for immediate life, should it ever become necessary.

With one option for local life *and* access to the center, it doesn't really look like black has any problems there

On the contrary, an extension instead of a one point jump just seems a little bit heavy, giving black a nice target to attack.

Of course I'm weaker than both of you, so please correct me if my evaluation is way off

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:58 am

The fact that Black is thinking about living on the inside in gote with a move like D2 is a sign that Black's result is slightly uncomfortable. If he tenukis following my sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 2 3 X . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:42 am

My thought is that Black will defend in either case. However, if White has extended, his group is much heavier than when he has jumped. Compare:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:51 am

In this case, I prefer the heavier group, the single stones feel rather meaningless in the second diagram. If White is to play that way, perhaps the first move wasn't right in the first place. How about C7 instead of D7?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:22 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O 5 . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that this :w1:

can only be played with support on the left side.

The stones in the jump version are not meaningless, they prevent Black from gobbling up the left side, and they are light.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When you just extend, you still have to look after these stones, but just defending is not very profitable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . 6 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and

are much bigger than :w3:

and

.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:28 am

They are light, but there are more effective ways I think of stopping Black from gobbling up that left hand side. As ended up in the game, the temptation to look after them now is great, as Black capturing that initial first stone is not all that small.

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:00 am

I should have simply resisted the temptation to further mess around there.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:11 am

Harleqin wrote:I should have simply resisted the temptation to further mess around there.

Yes, that may well have helped

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:57 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As black, I would have just played the honte move. Now the aji of the C4 stone is gone, and :w1:

is looking like it is too close to black's strength.

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:25 am

There is a thin line between honte and submission.

If you compare the following two diagrams, I think that White clearly gets a better result in the first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . 2 X 3 . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . 4 X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X O 5 . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There is no need for Black to play submissively, especially since he has the hoshi in the top left.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:30 am

Agreed, I think Black playing that way is far too passive Joaz, White seals Black in and his framework development potential skyrockets.

plankton · Post by **plankton** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:30 am

Kind of late but i made a guess.
Edit: I promise i didnt look in the hidden parts before guessing.

Edit: Wow, so you [Harlequin] are von Erichsen from ficgs?
Very impressive!

Life In 19x19

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