This is just a bad move

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:34 am

In fact connecting at a is not occuring in any recent game of my pro game database.

Well, I've got about 40 this year alone (and many for 2017). The surrounding position obviously matters, so if we just search on the first 20 moves to eliminate much of that noise, there are still almost 20 - and top players such as Yi Se-tol and Jiang Weijie have played it, some within the last fortnight.

Tryss · Post by **Tryss** » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:36 am

John Fairbairn wrote:
In fact connecting at a is not occuring in any recent game of my pro game database.
Well, I've got about 40 this year alone (and many for 2017). The surrounding position obviously matters, so if we just search on the first 20 moves to eliminate much of that noise, there are still almost 20 - and top players such as Yi Se-tol and Jiang Weijie have played it, some within the last fortnight.

You're not talking about positions with a black stone very close like this ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ . . . X . O a X O . . | $$ . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:01 pm

Kim Minseok 1p - Na Hyun 9p, B+Resign (Komi 6.5)
year 2018 Korean League, round 1, 2018-06-17

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X 2 . . . . O . . O . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Shin Minjun 8p - Paek Hongseok 9p, W+Resign (Komi 6.5)
year 2018 Korean League, round 1, 2018-06-15

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . X 3 . . . . O . . O . . . . | $$ | . . X X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:04 pm

You're not talking about positions with a black stone very close like this ?

No, I used a larger empty quadrant

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:09 pm

Ke Jie 9p - Fan Tingyu 9p, W+Resign (Komi 7.5)
20th Chinese League A, round 8, 2018-06-02

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X X X . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:10 pm

Dang Yifei 9p - Chen Yaoye 9p, B+3.5 (Komi 7.5)
20th Chinese League A, round 3, 2018-03-30

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . 6 . . . . . . . X O O O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:15 pm

(In my pro games database (>2000 games for 2018) these are the only 8 games of 2018 that show up for the discussed position. Nobody connected at a in these games. For the size of empty quadrant see first post of thread.)

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:43 am

John Fairbairn: Well, I've got about 40 this year alone (and many for 2017). The surrounding position obviously matters, so if we just search on the first 20 moves to eliminate much of that noise, there are still almost 20 - and top players such as Yi Se-tol and Jiang Weijie have played it, some within the last fortnight.

Care to share a game or two?

Or anybody else who points me to a game from 2018?

I would really like to explore the choice.

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:54 am

Jiang Weijie, 9p - Xu Jiayang, 7p, W+R (Komi 7.5)
20th Chinese League A, round 13, 2018-08-15

In this case connecting is related to the marked stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The marked stone is questionable by the way.
Probably because black has to play the ugly connecting move as follow up

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:49 am

(In my pro games database (>2000 games for 2018) these are the only 8 games of 2018 that show up for the discussed position. Nobody connected at a in these games. For the size of empty quadrant see first post of thread.)

Ah, OK. There was nothing in your post to indicate you were insisting on an 11x11 quadrant and I used my usual 9x9. That limits the hits drastically, even on my almost 4,000 2018 games. But for the AI era you may wish to look at Cho Han-seung vs Tao Xinran 2016-07-16 and Ichiriki Ryo vs Uchida Shuhei 2018-04-26 as the spacings there are very large. Takao Shinji vs Kono Rin 2014-09-11 is pre-AI but there is an even wider gap on the side. In all three cases the quality of the players concerned would make me hesitate about saying "bad move."

Also, although I glibly talk about "AI era", as far as I can see no AI has played the crawl (as opposed to the connection) in an 11x11 quadrant (on a 10x10 quadrant, I have only one example: AQ vs Baduki, but only as late as move 65, in August). The earlies example I have of the crawl for both 10x10 and 11x11 by a human is 2018-03 as above from China (move 26 by Chen Yaoye). So is this a purely human idea, an AI-influenced human idea, or an AI idea I have missed?

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:08 am

Thanks! Will have a look at the games.

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:02 am

Cho Han-seung 9d - Tao Xinran 6d, W+Resign (Komi 6.5)
21st Samsung Cup, Integrated Preliminary, Round 2, 2016-07-16

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:50 am

Ichiriki Ryo vs Uchida Shuhei 2018-04-26

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:55 am

Takao Shinji - Kono Rin

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:59 am

My conclusion:

To connect at a is not joseki anymore. At most it can be called a situational move nowadays.

Life In 19x19

This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move

Re: This is just a bad move