Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

[Gomoto]

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I dont think tenuki is an option here. One cant play a move like 2. What is your opinion?

[EdLee]

Hi Gomoto, what does the engine say about the tenuki ?

[Gomoto]

tenuki.jpg (159.54 KiB) Viewed 14284 times

I am very interested in games were you think a tenuki after the 3-3 invasion in the fuseki is the better option. I cant remember one occasion were the tenuki is a good move during the fuseki.

[Gomoto]

tenuki2.jpg (158.7 KiB) Viewed 14283 times

[EdLee]

Hi Gomoto, thanks. About -10% winrate for .

[Gomoto]

For starters some more examples were tenuki was a bad idea:

Chinen Kaori 6p - Fujisawa Rina 4p, B+Resign (Komi 6.5)
37th Japanese Female Honinbo, round 3, 2018-07-16

ten1.jpg (159.93 KiB) Viewed 14239 times

[Gomoto]

Park Junghwan 9p - Park Yeonghun 9p, W+Resign (Komi 7.5)
3rd Mlily Cup, final 1, 2017-12-30

ten2.jpg (162.6 KiB) Viewed 14238 times

ten3.jpg (164.47 KiB) Viewed 14238 times

[EdLee]

Hi Gomoto, thanks.

Chinen Kaori 6p (W) - Fujisawa Rina 4p (B+Resign)
Park Junghwan 9p (W+Resign) - Park Yeonghun 9p (B)

Who's B and W in each case ? Oh, it's in the screenshot; thanks.

[sorin]

I don't think playing tenuki after 3x3 invasion is such a big deal - it is as if one started with 3x3, then the opponent played 4x4 later.

The 10% drop in winrate as measured by AI sounds big, but for human players that may not make a lot of difference either.

[Gomoto]

Nobody said an early 4-4 over 3-3 is a good option (It is not the same by the way)

10% winrate drop is one aspect. You may check the winrates in your pro database also (Not as clear as the 10-15% winrate drop, which is pretty significant in my opinion, but also pointing in the same direction).

[Uberdude]

I rarely saw AlphaGo play tenuki from 3-3 invasion but don't recall if it was in self-play game or teaching tool so could be hard to find. Doesn't mean it's the best move though or LZ/Elf would like it.

[sorin]

Nobody said an early 4-4 over 3-3 is a good option

Indeed, it is not the only option.
In the particular game you showed, it looks like the 4x4 player wanted to play a forcing move first, to have their opponent decide, then they would decide in turn which side to block the 3x3 invasion. Of course, they were aware that the opponent may play tenuki.

10% winrate drop is one aspect. You may check the winrates in your pro database also (Not as clear as the 10-15% winrate drop, which is pretty significant in my opinion, but also pointing in the same direction).

I know what you mean, I agree that a 10% drop is mathematically important. However, I admire the pros that don't blindly follow Leela Zero's percentages, but rather play based on their own ideas (until convinced otherwise).

[Gomoto]

I am not the only one arguing you should not play tenuki:

Cho Hun-heyon: one should never ignore a shoulder hit (Lectures on Go Techniques)



I did learn this rule quite late and improved a lot when I finally stick to it. (Ok it is a reversed shoulder hit in this case )

[sorin]

I am not the only one arguing you should not play tenuki:

Cho Hun-heyon: one should never ignore a shoulder hit (Lectures on Go Techniques)

I did learn this rule quite late and improved a lot when I finally stick to it. (Ok it is a reversed shoulder hit in this case )

It is exactly "proverbs" like the one you quote ("never do...", "always do...") that resulted in blind spots even at the highest levels of human pros.

AlphaGo's greatest achievement in my view is that it helped to break free of misconceptions.

I hope we can avoid proverbs as arguments about why a specific move is better or worse, as I think that would be a step backwards, and it would also make my allergy to proverbs worse

[Gomoto]

Fair enough.

It is my style to never tenuki after the 3-3 invasion