Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126

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Gomoto
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Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126

Post by Gomoto »

Park Jiyeon, 4p - Cho Hyeyeon, 9p, B+R (Komi 6.5)
3rd Korean Women's League, round 14, 2017-05-04
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O X X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X O O X O . . . , . . . B . , X . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . O . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Gomoto
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Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126

Post by Gomoto »

Yamashita Keigo 9p - Cho Chikun 9p, B+6.5 (Komi 6.5)
54th Japanese NHK Cup, round 3, 2006-12-03
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . B . . . , . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Uberdude
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Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126

Post by Uberdude »

In those pro games the extension stone is strong due to white positions just beyond it (so invading would not be attacking it) wheras in your game it has no support and just that looming black position beyond.
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Gomoto
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Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126

Post by Gomoto »

Yes, you are right, that is a difference.

Let us have a look at some variations with ELF next:
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Gomoto
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Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126

Post by Gomoto »

ELF prefers tenuki over a local play, but not by much:
press1.jpg
press1.jpg (309.89 KiB) Viewed 17597 times
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Gomoto
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Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126

Post by Gomoto »

Variation a:

This seems to be whites strongest response:

(Black has to tenuki in this position, to prevent the white tigermouth would be too small)
Attachments
press2.jpg
press2.jpg (308.31 KiB) Viewed 5779 times
Last edited by Gomoto on Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gomoto
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Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126

Post by Gomoto »

alternative variations without the press lead to similar winrates:

one example (I reviewed quite a few more):

Variation b:
press3.jpg
press3.jpg (303 KiB) Viewed 5779 times
Last edited by Gomoto on Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Gomoto
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Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126

Post by Gomoto »

Perhaps you like to suggest a different variation that demonstrates a more pronounced advantage of not pressing at O4.


Like I said I agree that the press is not one of the "best" options, but I think it is still a very reasonable choice if one aims to simplify the position (like I always do when I think I have the advantage). But perhaps I am wrong, I definitly consider your critique.
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Gomoto
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Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126

Post by Gomoto »

And two more pro games with more "extreme" positions:

Kenmochi Joe, 8p - Fujisawa Rina, 3p, B+R (Komi 6.5)
43rd Japanese Kisei, preliminary, 2017-12-21

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . W . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Zhu Songli, 6p - Rong Yi, 4p, B+R (Komi 7.5)
1st Chinese Qisheng, preliminary, 2012-08-10
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
yes yes, ladder breaker ;-)
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Gomoto
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Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126

Post by Gomoto »

In the end I have to realize I am just an uncurable shoulder hit fanboy ;-)

Or it is kind of magical thinking by me:

because I like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ , . . . . B , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]
I also like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ , . . . B . , X . . |
$$ . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]
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Uberdude
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Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126

Post by Uberdude »

Here's a few ideas, I didn't check with bots but those >90% elf winrates show why I prefer LZ once the game is this lopsided to more easily see subsequent mistakes.

Build corner and side in sente. Let white get strong too.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . 4 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . 8 . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . O . 1 . O 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Fighto
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . 3 6 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . 4 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . 5 . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . O . 1 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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