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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #21 Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:20 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ok..i may be overplaying. but once i start something i can not take back.
i have to go with this flow and install merits to my previous move.
below is not too bad.. i can live with that.. but still 1 and 2 exchange is really painful(ouch).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O 4 5 O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


how about this?
i will have peep at "a" and build my points with "b"?
this is good for black (edit: not really but i can live with that) and he will try to find some other way to avoid this picture.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 7 9 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . 8 X 4 1 3 . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O 6 2 O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #22 Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:11 pm 
Lives with ko
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dubbelpost.


Last edited by Kie on Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #23 Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:12 pm 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 147
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 4
Rank: EGF 1d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . W O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The only move.

If we have any beginners here then this is a basic lesson in shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O , . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In general, the closed triangle (the one with a black stone in it) is a good shape, while the open triangle to the right is a bad shape. Of course, this doesn't always apply but in most cases it is a pretty good rule.

I think what Magicwand is doing is similar to fishing, you throw out a hook with some bate and hope to catch something big. However, sometimes you go home hungry. I think the last black move is dubious because black cannot resist strongly so he must let white connect all his stones.

Double-atari:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a O 1 O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black may try to sacrifice by playing at (a) instead but then white gets centre ponnukis and black cannot really be happy with such a result. This means he must play something painful by letting white connect all his stones.

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #24 Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:02 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O B O . O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i will fight through. i really didnt like variation i drew. i will try this to get something better..

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #25 Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:30 am 
Lives with ko
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Was liked: 4
Rank: EGF 1d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The game is quite complicated now and it's hard to know what the best sequence is. But Let's see:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 2 X . X b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O 4 O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 1 . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . # . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This feels more or less forced. The marked black stone is hurt and white has a big corner. However white has three stones floating around so that's blacks compensation. I think a or b are miai so white has some aji that can be used.

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #26 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:16 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
initally i was thinking to give him penuki but after some reading..i dont really have to give him penuki.
i am on vacation this week..i will not be able to play everyday.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #27 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:40 am 
Lives with ko
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Rank: EGF 1d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . W O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't think I can let him play here so not much to say.

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #28 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:59 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O B O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
black dont look too bad at all. i will try to make this more complicated. i think i have advantage when it is complicated.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #29 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:15 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
for observers only:
i am thinking white should have atari thisway. this picture look bad for black.
i might be wrong..do not quote me on this but ...this is what i am thinking white should have played.
for 7 i think black should play "b" but i am also not sure on this.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b 5 2 X 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 O . O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #30 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:42 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
i thought about what if white plays as below... and a,b,c? white influence is good but i dont think it is good for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O 1 O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O 5 4 B O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 6 3 2 a c . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 8 b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b7: = :bc: :b9: = :w4:
i guess i will punch through and create weak white group on to top. it will become more complicated after i punch through.
my thought on go:
this game is so complicated that some overplay by me will not usually decide the outcome of the game.
reading skills after that overplay will usually decide the outcome. after the game become complicated there usually will be a way to take the lead because my opponent will not play a perfect game. it is there for me to catch that moment and take a lead. that is what we mean by "strength" and it will favor stronger player.

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #31 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:22 pm 
Lives with ko
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




I like cash, that's just the way it is.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I assume black will deal with the dubbelatari first, now that white took the corner, black must first of all prevent the three stones from getting a good position. I guess (a) is most severe, but has some bad aji. I dunno what black will play, but I'll try to start looking at strategies soon, so far I have just been flowing along, I guess I need to take my gloves off now that the fighting begins.

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Post #32 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:04 pm 
Tengen
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KGS: magicwand
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[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
so he likes points. then i should have some points or influence by attacking his weak group

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Post #33 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:24 am 
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[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O W . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll just connect now, this keeps black from getting a 100% secure group. Whenever I have weak group, I try to keep some aji-around so that you just don't bang your head against absolute thickness.

Black obviously can't bend on the outside now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X 3 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O 2 X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess connecting is the only move. Like this white settles quite ok. Since I pocketed cash earlier and have komi, I fail to see that this would be very bad for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X 6 . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O 1 X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black counter at :b5: is plausible, but black isn't 100% alive so white should be able to move out in the center and take black with him. Again, white got the left corner, so if black get the right corner, it's probably a fair exchange. Black corner is potentially bigger, but needs another move to secure so it looks alright to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X 7 X 4 . . . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O 1 X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The double-hane is complicated but it doesn't feel very reasonable:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O 1 X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 6 3 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #34 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:22 am 
Tengen
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KGS: magicwand
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OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
only move

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #35 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:59 am 
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[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #36 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:53 pm 
Lives with ko

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Better move? If a then b; if b then a (yeowch!).

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Post #37 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:04 pm 
Dies in gote

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unkx80 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Better move? If a then b; if b then a (yeowch!).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X 1 . . . . d . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If b then a, what is whites follow up to c? Black would not be in trouble and white would have to make a low move like d to live, no?

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #38 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:56 pm 
Tengen

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uglyboxer wrote:
unkx80 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Better move? If a then b; if b then a (yeowch!).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X 1 . . . . d . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If b then a, what is whites follow up to c? Black would not be in trouble and white would have to make a low move like d to live, no?


I would think black is unhappy. His group isn't terribly weak, but neither is it strong or accomplishing anything. White is happy to take the corner and settle easily on the outside.

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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #39 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:39 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
he can not seal me in the middle..now i am attacking his weak group, if he block i can play "3" it looks like a strong attack on his group. is it correct?? probably not. i have to study the variations more. but i like the shape and it is strong.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X 1 2 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson


This post by Magicwand was liked by: Tommie
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 Post subject: Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)
Post #40 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:18 pm 
Lives with ko
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Warning! OT rant ahead:

As mentioned earlier, I haven't had my groove for a while, and yesterday I played a fairly strong player and I lost. That's life, but the game was very long and grueling, lots of fighting and trade-offs and so forth and in the end I lost by poor endgame. However, it became clear to me that I'm not trying to win in go anymore, I just trail along avoiding things that lead to disaster. It's often possible to win games like this because the oponent makes mistakes and sort of kill themselves, but against strong players, you do need something more. You need the will to win, trying to plan ahead of your oponent, lure him into your strategies and traps and so forth. I lack that right now.

I have some serious training to do to get out of this lazy kind of playing. I don't think I can surpass my current level unless I make some serious change.

Game:

I'm just gonna follow-up my move then. If I answer black now my previous move makes no sense, so here goes. Black will cut. Black must cut.

Maybe along these lines:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 1 . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Kie was liked by 3 people: Chew Terr, prokofiev, Violence
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