66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Post by Loons »

I'm in favor of a moderator deleting these last several posts.

Obviously I wasn't trying to suggest something absurd (that Chew should now try and play ladders because they wouldn't work for him), as Topazg notes.
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k) Open

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yeah, not entirely sure the best way to fight this. Obviously avoiding ladder joseki (that's part of what I meant earlier when I said that tengen affects fighting). As I said previously, Shaddy's central influence will also help him be able to break up moyos. I suspect already that the largest moyo will be in the center. So I'll take points, build solid groups, and prepare to break up a central moyo if my humble opponent tries for one. I'm playing the 3-4 on this side so that Shaddy can't get an ideal approach.


Responses to observers:
LiKao: We use hide tags just to compress post size, and so that planning diagrams are not confused with actual moves.

Dusk: Yeah, I don't know much of anything about this fuseki, so I'm attempting to build a basic understanding from general fuseki principles, which... I'm not sure how well this will go. I've played against a great wall-like opening once in a tournament, but I was playing a game where I was given four handicap stones, which obviously changed the game entirely.

Topazg: One thing at a time! ;) My opponent may be turning 'Corner, side, center' on its head, but I'm going to stick with it and see how it goes. After all, I haven't read that far in Sector Fights yet! I'm really curious how the board will look after the opening

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I expect something like this: I take each corner, then my opponent presses me down in the bottom left with the 4-4, then I get sente (if I'm willing to take it) to close the bottom right corner. Though I may not take sente from the bottom left, because getting shut in could hurt badly.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k) Open

Post by Shaddy »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

According to plan, so far. By the way, the Great Wall looks like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but I'm considering stopping with the star points. It's somewhat harder to complete as white, because black gets so many free moves. Maybe I'll get sente elsewhere and come back to fix it.
One more thing!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 1 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . a . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This 1 is joseki, not a, because if White plays a, Black can extend up and give him a cutting point.
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thanks for showing me that joseki error, Shads. At least I only made the error on my opponent's side of the joseki~. This move is what I promised I'd do. I'm playing high because I don't want to give a good approach, and also want my stone to work well with the top, in case anything interesting happens there. Still expecting the 4-4 from Shadonralkovich, instead of him finishing that wall.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Post by Shaddy »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was extremely, extremely tempted to defy Chew's expectations, but I don't think I can justify finishing the wall and allowing him all those enclosures. Feels too solid for Black.
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hmmm, if predicting things can make my opponent follow them, perhaps I can influence him (evil laugh). In all seriousness, I'm still expecting what I predicted a few moves ago. Shaddy will complete his thickness, I will stabilize my stones in every corner, unless I'm mistaken. Needless to say, that doesn't mean I'm proof against invasions or anything, it just means if my opponent invades, I will be more likely to have options.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Post by Shaddy »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, time to make the moyo. I anticipate this.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X 7 . |
$$ | . . X . . 3 . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Oh, by the way, I did say 3 was not joseki. I plan to play it in this case because I'm worried approximately zero about black cutting me, because of my center influence.
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thanks for clearing that up. I'm working on reading out possible alternatives for the next move in the sequence, but I may as well submit this move before I go back to reading, since I need this, regardless.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X O W . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 8 X . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What I am considering is this: If I exchange the marked black stone for the marked white one, it would let me play 1 high, as pictured, instead of low. The additional support seems to make the push and cut not work. Actually, on second thought, I need to read to see if the push and cut works in the first time, I may be chasing a red herring. Regardless, this raises the question of whether or not the left side is important enough for me to want to play high to shrink/threaten it. Time for continued reading. Yeah, I think the push and cut may not work, regardless... more to come later.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Post by Shaddy »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Indecision! I changed my mind, because I think this move takes advantage of the star point I played earlier, where the other one really didn't. It's always better to make your stones work together in the opening, I suppose, hence this. It might also be sente.
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Chew Terr
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . B . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ah ha, finally I remember something from 28 basic joseki! If white turns the corner, as he did, I get this move as miai. Of course there are some downsides to it (not the least of which that white likely got cash and can approach my bottom right stone, but this does a ton for helping me against white in the middle. It gets me out (white still alive, I think), and if white does approach, this move makes pincers look good. I know white can try to cut here and get a weak group on bottom, but I think that will let me attack it with extension-enclosure... I think? I'm not confident that I can come out ahead, but I have to play as though my opponent is no stronger than I am. If I don't trust my reading, I will fall into bad habits, or at least not learn.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Shaddy
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Post by Shaddy »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, I considered the high approach, the far low approach, the far high approach, and peeking at the weaknesses of the bottom left shape, and disliked this one the least. High approach will probably get 2-space high pincered and that ends up badly for me, since I can't do much against the corner and the pincer stone counters my influence nicely. Far low approach gets pincered, black gets influence, white gets a thick group, which I don't need because influence. Ditto for far high approach. Poking at the weaknesses of the bottom left gets real complicated real fast and black gets influence which I'd really rather not allow. If black pincers my stone now, I'll shoulder hit, make a wall, and counterpincer. That'll get nasty for black. Dunno what I'd do here as black, maybe kosumi.
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . B . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . B . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I wanted to play here, but it seems too invadable, with white's center stones. Instead, I think I should do exactly what my opponent suggests: pincer, take points on the right, and just plan for after the counter-pincer.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Post by Shaddy »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I WARNED YOU. ON YOUR HEAD BE IT
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Chew Terr
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Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On my head? Like a hat? In seriousness, I'm considering some unusual possibilities for variations to this joseki, though I'm not done reading yet. Specifically, I'm considering sacrifices, ways to cut, and attachments. Perhaps not good moves, certainly not NORMAL moves. However, I think that this situation is unusual enough that the 'usual' followup may not be optimal.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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