Elf OpenGo paper released

[Uberdude]

https://arxiv.org/abs/1902.04522

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1902.04522.pdf

[jaca]

had to happen... now what are the LZ crowd gonna do about this?!

it's all Geek to me, but i'd love to see C2's move that nearly knocked Elf off her perch - from the authors' remarks about ladders, it looks like Elf walked under one and nearly paid the price, but made a stunning recovery.

elfvc2.png (66.58 KiB) Viewed 15572 times

[Charlie]

At this moment in time, it looks like ELF v.2 (05dbca15) is losing solidly against the strongest LZ network. The match is not over, of course:

Capture.JPG (36.77 KiB) Viewed 15559 times

[Uberdude]

but i'd love to see C2's move that nearly knocked Elf off her perch - from the authors' remarks about ladders, it looks like Elf walked under one and nearly paid the price, but made a stunning recovery.

Presumably it was this 4th game, which we talked about before (black 0.47875 is very close to the near -0.5 of graph):

[Uberdude]

At this moment in time, it looks like ELF v.2 (05dbca15) is losing solidly against the strongest LZ network. The match is not over, of course:

In previous matches Elf has lost more of the early games because it tends to lose games to ladder blunders which are short games, but does relatively better at games which go to counting and they take longer.

[jaca]

proof, as if any were needed, that 43 is the Meaning of Life

a study group type question, if i may (perhaps best answered over there): that joseki in the bottom right - i vaguely remember St Michael talking about it onetime, but can't remember what he said or where he said it; it looks wierd to me, for what's the point in jumping with keima if white's only going to butt heads against it and black more or less has to play where she would have done anyway with the more (to me, at least) natural-looking press instead? i suppose there must be some advantage to the keima that doesn't become obvious until several hundred moves later...

[tigerman]

What happened in these two games?

W: ELF V2
B: LeelaZero #204

http://zero.sjeng.org/viewmatch/c327835 ... viewer=wgo
http://zero.sjeng.org/viewmatch/7b181c4 ... viewer=wgo

[mhlepore]

...what's the point in jumping with keima if white's only going to butt heads against it and black more or less has to play where she would have done anyway with the more (to me, at least) natural-looking press instead? i suppose there must be some advantage to the keima that doesn't become obvious until several hundred moves later...

I hope I don't get in trouble for answering in the wrong place:

- I believe the keima increases black's ability to take sente. Which seems to be a thing now.
- I also don't think it is a given that white is going to butt heads. I've seen O-02 played as well, and the variations can get complicated.

[Uberdude]

What happened in these two games?

W: ELF V2
B: LeelaZero #204

http://zero.sjeng.org/viewmatch/c327835 ... viewer=wgo
http://zero.sjeng.org/viewmatch/7b181c4 ... viewer=wgo

Are there bad parameters? (LZ test game files only seem to show params for one colour, or do we assume both colours have the same parameters expcet for network file?) Looks like those training games where first x moves have chance to be random. Also malicious/modified/badly-configured clients is a possibility, it's been a cause for concern on the LZ project for a while.

[tigerman]

I agree that it was probably due to client misconfigurations. Taking these two games out, ELF v2 vs. LZ #204 was a measly 34-60, or 36.17% games won. Not great, at least in this round of experiments.

All match games in the round can be viewed at http://zero.sjeng.org/match-games/5c63e ... 029e7a2390.

[Uberdude]

Not so surprising give it is equal visits so the 40-block LZ will likely use more than twice the time as 20-block Elfv2. Here is a test match with the same equal visits setup of LZ 200 vs Elf v1, Elfv1 won 33.5% then.

https://github.com/leela-zero/leela-zero/issues/2212. A Chinese user @atoutw is doing an 120 sec a move test on 2080Ti Elfv2 vs LZ 204.

https://cloudygo.com/ringmaster/minigo- ... lf.report/ A minigo v15 (20 block) vs elf v2 test match on 3200 visits

[tigerman]

Can anyone confirm that ELF can correctly read ladders now (perhaps with the right number of playouts or visits)? I saw ELF v2 still making questionable ladder moves in a couple of games against LZ #204.

I was so hoping to see the machine play a double ladder breaker some day.

[Uberdude]

LZ too still has troubles with ladders, though is better than Elf. Here's a ladder fail of LZ 198: forum/viewtopic.php?p=240305#p240305. I'll give it a try with LZ 204 and 50k+ playouts later.

[tigerman]

The latest-

ELF v2 ladder fail: http://zero.sjeng.org/viewmatch/49314be ... viewer=wgo

LZ #204 ladder fail: http://zero.sjeng.org/viewmatch/12f4fa2 ... viewer=wgo

Minigo v16-1144 ladder fail: http://zero.sjeng.org/viewmatch/d8696d1 ... viewer=wgo

Parameters are -p 0 -v 1600 -r 5 -m 0 -t 1 -d --noponder.

[dfan]

Can anyone confirm that ELF can correctly read ladders now (perhaps with the right number of playouts or visits)? I saw ELF v2 still making questionable ladder moves in a couple of games against LZ #204.

The paper explicitly mentions that it still has trouble with ladders.