Mixed news

Fedya · #1

So I've still been trying to play more aggressively, and the good news it that it's led to a string of victories against KGS 6k players that finally got me bumped back up to 5k for the first time in a good two years. (Whenever I put up a challenge, I was only getting responses from players equal to me or lower, so I didn't get to play many stronger players recently.) The mixed news is that I seem to be winning more because I'm doing a better job of spotting my opponents' mistakes than they've been of spotting mine -- in fact, I've been spotting some of my own serious mistakes during the game and hoping that my opponents miss them. :oops:

I had the sinking feeling that once I got challenges from 5k and especially 4k players that they'd be much more likely to spot my mistakes and take advantage of them. Still, I tried to play aggressively, and got a game where I felt I didn't play badly, and certainly had good chances to win -- until I missed at move 205 that L16 would become a fake eye, costing me that group in the top center. :oops:

Any other ideas on where I was playing too passively, or where I thought I was playing aggressively but really wasn't?

dfan · #2

Congrats! I hardly recognize the old Fedya in this game. Even better, I can hardly recognize the old Fedya in your post; no "somehow whenever I try to do the right thing I fail" sorts of comments.

Quote:

I seem to be winning more because I'm doing a better job of spotting my opponents' mistakes than they've been of spotting mine

That is how 9ps win too.

A few early comments:

:b17:

is neither here nor there. There's enough space that you should be expecting to live on the side/corner rather than run away, which is what you are implying by playing on the fourth line. B15 is a standard idea here that is worth looking up. Another modern-style idea is to attach at D11.

:b31:

: Bravo! I don't know if it's the best move but it's great that you played it.

:b65:

: This is the first "old Fedya" move I noticed. You are good enough to be able to read that a White cut here doesn't work at all. A hane at Q6 would make such a difference. (I just peeked with Leela Zero and it says that your move at R3 reduced Black's chance of winning from 73% to 29%. That's how bad it is. It's practically -1 point in gote.)

:b67:

: What jumps out to me is the big moyo White is making at the bottom. I think that this is the first priority. Something like K4 seems a like a promising way to frustrate White. (I should note that Leela Zero thought your move was just as good, though.)

bernds · #3

Fedya wrote:

So I've still been trying to play more aggressively, and the good news it that it's led to a string of victories against KGS 6k players that finally got me bumped back up to 5k for the first time in a good two years. (Whenever I put up a challenge, I was only getting responses from players equal to me or lower, so I didn't get to play many stronger players recently.) The mixed news is that I seem to be winning more because I'm doing a better job of spotting my opponents' mistakes than they've been of spotting mine -- in fact, I've been spotting some of my own serious mistakes during the game and hoping that my opponents miss them. :oops:

Sounds like you've turned a corner and are enjoying the game more. That's the most important part after all. Attitude and certain aspects of the game itself seem like a step forward, and the fact that you're winning by exploiting your opponents' mistakes is not a problem, rather it's a good sign.

I'll be going over a few things that jumped out at me, with my assistant Zero.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . O . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . b . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . .[/go]

I don't like this kind of high approach. It does not threaten enough, and if White answers calmly it ends up just floating there without a clear followup. I sometimes like side invasions at C12, approaching a high stone with a knight's move. LZ wants to play B, which is also standard. But there's unfinished business in the lower left which is more important:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O O 2 . . . $$ | . 3 X X X O 1 . . $$ | . . . . . X . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ +------------------[/go]

A standard followup sequence in this joseki, strengthening Black and undercutting the left side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . X O . $$ | . O O X . $$ | . O X X . $$ | . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . $$ | . . . O . $$ | . . . . .[/go]

Good! This is one of the moves I liked while looking at the game - it looks like pretty good technique to me, making miai of blocking on the second line or damaging the fourth-line stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . a . . $$ | . . O O O X . . $$ | . . X X X O O . $$ | . . . . . X 1 . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ +----------------[/go]

Not too much point going into concrete variations, but perhaps this move (instead of A in the game) is worth mentioning. It strengthens you and makes it kind of difficult for White to deal with the cutting stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc19 $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | O X O O . . . . $$ | . O X 1 . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Pushing up here weakens your upper stones by encouraging White to pull out his two stones. Consider just leaving the situation - the black stone you played is a cutting stone which may still inconvenience White later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . O 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . a . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------+[/go]

I was going to criticize this, but if you give it some time, LZ thinks this is indeed best (locally). My idea would have been to extend along the lower side, maybe at A. The idea is that White is already pincered, and maybe Black can find a way to put some pressure on the three stones at the bottom in order to discard his few scattered stones there on a small scale.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . a . . . | $$ . . . . O X . . | $$ . . . . O X . . | $$ . . . O X . . . | $$ . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------+[/go]

Since you asked: this is a move that's too passive. This is the avalanche joseki, and you already have a supporting stone further up the side. A hane at the head of two, at A, shows more spirit.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . a . . . | $$ . . . . O X . . | $$ . . . . O X . . | $$ . . . O X 1 . . | $$ . . . O X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------+[/go]

Ask yourself: what threat am I defending against? White could reduce your corner a little, but if you play at A instead (hane at the head of two!) you give his stones some problems, and expand on the right side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X X X . 2 . . . . . . $$ | O X . . . X 1 . . . . . . $$ | . O X X X O . O . . . . . $$ | X O X O O O O . . . X . . $$ | . X O X X O . X . . . . . $$ | . . O . . O . . . X X . . $$ | . O O . . X . X . O O O .[/go]

White's move is a large mistake, and so is Black's response. The black stones on the left are rock-solid 100% alive, so: don't play near strong stones. White's move threatens nothing, and Black's response is unnecessary. Black could have added a stone to the center group instead, which is still weak, and getting further weakened by these exchanges. LZ thinks the point A in the following diagram is the key point for both sides:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc19 $$ . X . X . O O O . . $$ O X . X . . . . . . $$ X O O . X X a . . . $$ . X O . O O . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . . $$--------------------[/go]

If White gets it, it forms a secure territory at the bottom. If Black gets it, some of White's groups might have to live independently.

At move 128 you say you felt like you had to stop White from taking the top. LZ thinks you can do whatever you want (but it still likes A from the previous diagram). If you just protect your top right corner, that makes three decent-size corners, plus a fair chunk of territory on the left. I think what you did was quite decent, up to a point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$---------------- $$ . X . . . . . . $$ O X O O X X O . $$ . X . X X O O O $$ . . . . . X . O $$ O . X 1 X a . O $$ . . X O X . . O $$ O . . . O . . O[/go]

Just this, instead of A - and it seems clear there's one eye at the top and one in the center.

ez4u · #4

Black 121 at K12 would break out. White cannot resist since the second atari at H12 threatens to reduce his left-side group to one eye with H8. That is why the new, more aggressive Fedya decided to capture two stones with B7 and A8, right? ;-)

Bill Spight · #5

dfan wrote:

Congrats! I hardly recognize the old Fedya in this game. Even better, I can hardly recognize the old Fedya in your post; no "somehow whenever I try to do the right thing I fail" sorts of comments.

Fedya, let me add my congratulations for your growth as a player, for your new strength and new attitude. It really is wonderful to see.

Fedya · #6

I'll go over everything else later in the day when I get back from work, but regarding dfan's suggestion for :b17:

to attach on the fourth line, it's not something I would have considered. I've played a couple of recent games trying the third-line attachment, and wasn't so sure how good the results were.

Bill Spight · #7

For

let me say I also like the submarine invasion at B-15, as well as the atari followed by the descent to B-03 in the bottom left corner. I also like a move that has not been mentioned, the one space pincer in the top right at M-17.

Joaz Banbeck · #8

Like several other posters above, I thought that black 17 at D4 was too inflexible and too likely to become heavy. More disturbing was the continuation of that trend with 19 and 21 and 23. ( For a few moves it looked like the old Fedya was trying to claw his way back into this spacetime branch. )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 Black is heavy $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 O B . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the above position, :b21:

is the natural move, but the :b19:

/

exchange just makes both sides more solid in a situation where black wants to remain light and flexible. Because of the presence of :w20:

, now

is almost necessary.

I would have played :b19:

at C13 immediately, staying lighter and keeping more options available:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 Black playing lightly $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

( White 20 at B14 is tactically different, but strategically the same for black )

Fedya · #9

After further thought:

:b17:

and my follow-up was that bad? :oops:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . O . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . b . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . .[/go]

I'm not certain what :b1:

at b is supposed to do here. Prepare to invade at the 3-3? Otherwise it seems awfully low.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . a . . $$ | . . O O O X . . $$ | . . X X X O O . $$ | . . . . . X 1 . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ +----------------[/go]

By playing at a instead of 1, I was trying to keep reducing White above. Later in the game, I did see H8 created a false eye, but there never really seemed like a right time to play it, as stuff elsewhere on the board looked more important.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . O 1 . . | $$ . . b . . . . . | $$ . . a . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------+[/go]

I played 1 here mostly because I had been playing b and then bemoaning my not getting good territory, so somebody suggested 1 instead. The local results seem to have been mostly OK, so I've kept playing it.

Quote:

That is why the new, more aggressive Fedya decided to capture two stones with B7 and A8, right?

If you're asking whether I was trying to keep up the pressure on the white group in the lower left, yes, that's why I captured those white stones. It's also why I played F5 instead of G2

jlt · **#10**

Possible sequences:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +-------------- $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . O . $$ | . 1 3 O . . . $$ | . X 2 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +-------------- $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 . . . O . $$ | . 2 1 O . . . $$ | . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Bill Spight · **#11**

Fedya wrote:

After further thought:

:b17:

and my follow-up was that bad? :oops:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . O . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . b . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . .[/go]

I'm not certain what :b1:

at b is supposed to do here. Prepare to invade at the 3-3? Otherwise it seems awfully low.

No,

was not all that bad.

I checked with Deep Leela (Leela 11), exploring possibilities, because you can't rely on winrate estimates with low playouts. DL considers your invasion to be about 3% worse than the atari in the bottom left corner. By my estimation, 3% is around DL's margin of error, so I think we have to say that :b17:

is doubtful. The submarine invasion at "b" is probably better, as humans have known for a long time. That's probably why your play got such a strong response. (I'll get back to "b" later, if no one else does.

)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Bad reply $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . d . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X X O a . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X b . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

DL thinks that :w18:

is a bit worse, losing about 4%. It prefers to play in the bottom left at "a" or "b". Locally it prefers the attack at "c" or "d". All four plays are playable, IMO.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Questionable sacrifice $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . 8 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

DL does not like :b19:

. It's still within the margin of error, but Black has no good follow-up. :b23:

is the usual tesuji, but is met by :w24:

. If

could be at "a", the sacrifice might be better, I don't know. But it can't. White is too strong here and Black has become heavy. :b25:

was a good play under the circumstances, however.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Kikashi stones $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . b . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . e c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X X O a . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

DL (and just about everybody else) recommends :b19:

. After which Black can regard :b17:

and

as kikashi stones. They have gotten responses and done their work, and can be sacrificed.

For

DL prefers the atari at "a", but "b" - "e" all have very close win rate estimates to that of "a" and any of them may be best.

Tryss · **#12**

Bill Spight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Questionable sacrifice $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . 8 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[...] If

could be at "a", the sacrifice might be better, I don't know. But it can't. White is too strong here and Black has become heavy.

What's funny is that, put in this situation, LZ would indeed play :b25:

at a, sacrificing on a bigger scale :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm25 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

at a is also possible, and get prefered after a while (but with no significant winrate difference)

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