EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match

Uberdude · **#41**

Surma was never behind according to LZ 157b (15-block trained on 40-block)

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Aram · **#42**

Now we'll get to see Mateusz against the two most active AGA Pros.
Interesting though that every EGF Pro has more activity.

Uberdude wrote:

Here are some stats from go4go on the activity and success of the AGA and EGF pros: total games, games vs Asian pros, wins vs Asian pros respectively.

AGA:
Ryan: 10, 8, 3 (one of which Chen Yaoye)
Eric: 16, 13, 1
Gansheng: 9, 9, 3
Andy: 7, 7, 3
Calvin: 0, 0, 0

EGF:
Ilya: 61, 33, 5
Pavol: 25, 11, 1
Mateusz: 33, 13, 3 (also had wins in Chinese C league not in go4go)
Ali: 43, 16, 1
Artem: 33, 19, 4

US Go Congress games aren't included but some big European events are (but only a few EGC, mostly the Grand Slam events for which there is no US equivalent) which will give the EGF more of the first number and AGA miss out on a few games vs Asian pros studying in US universities, but I think the general picture it paints is fairly reflective of reality.

hyperpape · **#43**

The list of all ratings in the AGA includes players who aren't active--you can see that in the date columns. The number of active members has been a lot closer to 2000 than 20000. I believe active members typically consist of those who have played in a tournament in the past year, but there are exceptions. You can be a lifetime member, a member who doesn't play tournaments, or get a multi-year membership.

Ferran · **#44**

hyperpape wrote:

The list of all ratings in the AGA includes players who aren't active--you can see that in the date columns. The number of active members has been a lot closer to 2000 than 20000. I believe active members typically consist of those who have played in a tournament in the past year, but there are exceptions. You can be a lifetime member, a member who doesn't play tournaments, or get a multi-year membership.

Let's see if the image uploads, I haven't used BBCode in quite a while. The very last column is not "2040" but the "Never" field. That said, expirations in 2019 and forward total 2461, although I'd expect at least some of those whose membership expired in 2018 to renew later on when circumstances allow.

Take care.

jlt · **#45**

In comparison, there are 7261 active players in the EGF ( http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Stats_Country.php ).

Active means

For dan players: having participated in a tournament during the last 2 years
For 1-10 kyu: having participated in a tournament during the last year
For 11-20 kyu: having participated in a tournament during the last 6 months.

So we can estimate that there are 3 times more EGF than AGA players.

Ferran · **#46**

So, more people, more density, and better... accesibility? (tournaments, public transport...) That has to leave a mark.

However... if I didn't mess my data, of the EGF professionals, the Western-most comes from Poland. Basically, except for Jabarin-nidan, all of them are from what used to be called Eastern Europe; and he's technically Asian.

If you count in the ones who've been through the professional system in Asia, you get a German, an Austrian and a Finn. And the first two died a while ago. Things only get slightly better if you add in immigrated pros.

Take care.

PS: What happens if you pay your dues but don't compete in tournaments, or not in a time period? You're not active, then? Do we have an estimate of non-affiliated players, sdk and above?

Oberlappen · **#47**

@ jlt

Yes in the EGD, you`ll see first 45954 in the EGF (in Germany 6466), all players from 1996 (begin of the EGD) to now. It´s the same here, you have to go, to EGF ranked, than you get the active players.

It´s easier here in Europe to play tournaments, thats for sure. And it´s important to play tournaments too, especially strong tournaments. For example does Kim Youngsam use one tournament per month at minimum, in the Jena International Go School (JIGS), to teach his Students (the ones which stay for a longer period). He visits big tournaments in Germany like the Kido Cup, Berliner Kranich or Frankfurt, he even visit big ones in neighbor countries like France, where he visits Paris and Strasbourg. He analyse the games with his students and they learn a lot from them.

If the AGA wants to raise their talents better, they need more tournaments too. Maybe the AGA can work on more good tournaments in North America or you visit more in Asia or in Europe (maybe in a JIGS program). Maybe there is a possibility for visitings too. I thought of it for some time. I know 2 Go players from the US, which are now here, so I thought of visiting a tournament in the US with them. For example one week with one weekend tournament and the rest of the time, someone can discover the place, he visits, like in a vacation. If some Go players can offer their appartments for free, the costs are not that high. I would think of something like that here in Europe too, that way many Go players can discover another continent. I would offer my appartment for example, if someone wants to visit Germany.

Oberlappen · **#48**

Ferran wrote:

So, more people, more density, and better... accesibility? (tournaments, public transport...) That has to leave a mark.

However... if I didn't mess my data, of the EGF professionals, the Western-most comes from Poland. Basically, except for Jabarin-nidan, all of them are from what used to be called Eastern Europe; and he's technically Asian.

If you count in the ones who've been through the professional system in Asia, you get a German, an Austrian and a Finn. And the first two died a while ago. Things only get slightly better if you add in immigrated pros.

Take care.

PS: What happens if you pay your dues but don't compete in tournaments, or not in a time period? You're not active, then? Do we have an estimate of non-affiliated players, sdk and above?

No, nearly all are from east europe, but just one from Poland. And from Europeans who learned in Asia and became pros, there is also an Russian (Alexandre Dinerchstein), a Hungarian (Diana Köszegi) and an Romanian (Catalin Taranu), they all still living.

So it´s a little bit more, than you mentioned.

Edit: I first misunderstood, I thought you said the most are from Poland, now I see, you mean Mateusz is in the more western direction.

Edit 2: I missed two Europeans myself, which made their way to professional in South Korea, Svetlana Shikshina from Russia sister of Ilja Shhikshin and Mariya Zakharchenko from the Ukraine. In total 8 European, which became pro in Asia, not so bad I think.

Uberdude · **#49**

Q: What's the contour integral around Western Europe?
A: Zero, because all the Poles are in Eastern Europe!

Oberlappen · **#50**

Uberdude wrote:

Q: What's the contour integral around Western Europe?
A: Zero, because all the Poles are in Eastern Europe!

Oh yes, there around 2 million in Germany too. And thats if you just count the official immigration since 1955, in the more distant past, especially in the industrialisation, many more came to Germany. Thats why names like Kowalski, are common under Germans too.

Uberdude · **#51**

jlt · **#52**

Anyway, it is clear that the situation is better in Eastern Europe than in the west. Here is the top40 according to http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/cr ... dgob=false

About half of them have learned go in Europe, and among the latter, about 4/5 of them are from Eastern Europe (I didn't count precisely).

Ferran · **#53**

I got the data from another form in the same site, it looks the same. So, then...

And a bunch of those FR/DE people happen to have CH/KR surnames.

So, I'd guess that in Russia, for example, players are coming from a local tradition, while a good deal of the top players in EU/NA still seem to come from an Eastern background. I'd have expected more UK entries, though.

Take care.

Uberdude · **#54**

Ferran wrote:

I'd have expected more UK entries, though.

UK is weak now, no longer a force in European Go like it was a few decades ago. It's embarrassing that as a 4 dan I'm a fixture of recent title matches.

Oberlappen · **#55**

jlt wrote:

Anyway, it is clear that the situation is better in Eastern Europe than in the west. Here is the top40 according to http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/cr ... dgob=false

About half of them have learned go in Europe, and among the latter, about 4/5 of them are from Eastern Europe (I didn't count precisely).

Yes East Europe is stronger now. Maybe it changes in the next 20 years, we have a lot of talents now here in West Europe. But it´s still the EGF AREA and they Play tournaments here too, very often and in East Europe there are many tournaments too. Also it´s the question, if it´s necessary to mentioned it that not all players from Europe. In the AGA it is the same, that are Players from Asia, which are really strong. In the end Taiwan alone is stronger than Europe and North America together, in this game, I didn´t even mentioned the three Go Kingdoms.

@Ferran

No East Europe got no Go Tradition, they have a chess Tradition. But there they already knew, many competitions helps to get better. Also they are more ambitious in sports, for many in West Europe they think first of having a good paid Job from studiying or an apprenticeship first (the second one is often in Germany, Austria or Denmark, many good qualifications can here made without a college, in a more practical orientated way to learn), then they don´t do that much anymore, to get better in Go.
And when it comes to Tradition, it seems that is more about that in North America, with the immigrants from China, Korea, Japan and Taiwan. We have some too, but North America got more and when I look at the AGA Professionals, they got all an Asian Migration backround, they look like they have a heritage from China or Taiwan. Ryan Li for example startet even Go at the Age of 6 in China, in a Go School, I saw it in a short biopic about him.
In Europe you have no EGF professional, with Migration backround from one of the three Go Kingdoms or Taiwan. Or could you tell which of the 6 EGF Pros could have such a heritage?

Ferran · **#56**

Oberlappen wrote:

No East Europe got no Go Tradition, they have a chess Tradition.

I get that, but I'd phrase it as "they have mainly a chess tradition". From my POV, it looks like they have a mind sports tradition that has veered towards Go pretty well.

Quote:

Also they are more ambitious in sports

Mind sports, sure. Not so sure myself about sports in general. Then, maybe, Western sportsmen are not as valued as Eastern? I don't know, but the setup of Rocky IV keeps coming to my mind. Even with team sports, which may and do raise passions (in Europe with real football and overseas with the other one, plus baseball, basketball, hockey...) you don't see the kind of relevance Karpov & Kasparov had. My, the reference is dated!

Quote:

for many in West Europe they think first of having a good paid Job from studiying or an apprenticeship first [...] then they don´t do that much anymore, to get better in Go.

I'm not sure I understand this properly... West Europeans don't do apprenticeship to get better at Go? They don't do Go because they have an apprenticeship in something else?

Quote:

And when it comes to Tradition, it seems that is more about that in North America, with the immigrants from China, Korea, Japan and Taiwan.

I wouldn't call that an American tradition (or a European one); at least, not yet, precisely because it's very limited to immigration.

Quote:

[...] when I look at the AGA Professionals, they got all an Asian Migration backround, they look like they have a heritage from China or Taiwan.

I noticed. This is what makes me say that, say, Russia has a stronger, okay, let's call it mind sports tradition. In coarse, very very coarse terms, Russian names are Russian; US names are not. It hasn't permeated the host culture yet.

However, I do notice that YouTube channels from the West are seldom from people with ancestry in the Three Kingdoms' [*].

Quote:

In Europe you have no EGF professional, with Migration backround from one of the three Go Kingdoms or Taiwan. Or could you tell which of the 6 EGF Pros could have such a heritage?

Oh, I agree. We seem to mean different things by US/EU tradition, though.

Take care.

[*] I do hope the reference is to Japan, Korea and China, and not to the Korean period.

Javaness2 · **#57**

I think that it is really difficult to earn a living playing Go in much of Europe. If you are doing some ancillary activity, like teaching, writing, or administrating, I doubt the situation is very different. As I understand it, some old Eastern Block countries will treat top players like athletes and give them some income. How much income that would be I can't comment. In the USA I don't think there are more than a handful of events which feature prize money. I guess that you can only hope to make a living there through teaching. In Canada I have no idea.

Oberlappen · **#58**

@Ferran

Russia or better East Europe in general is also ambitious and successful in many physical sports, for example Tennis and nevertheless say can´t keep up in all sports they do, even so they are ambitious, so they are good in one mind game, is no prove that it helps in another. They don´t have a traditionell Go infrastructure and this game even got an hard rival with chess. There it would be even more a solution to take chess, instead of Go, than in West Europe, cause it´s a game with a really successfull history.
When it Comes to Tradition, Asian Migration definetly Counts more. The USA has nearly 5 Million People of chinese heritage (most from 2 waves, some had ancestors who came around 150 ago, the most in the last decades). 1.8 Million with Korean heritage and 1.4 Million japanese heritage are in the US too. These are really much People and in Canada there are around 1.4 with Chinese heritage and around 200 thousand with Korean and Japanese heritage. Here two links, with articles about the Asian Population in the US and Canada (for each Country one link).

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... americans/

https://www.asiapacific.ca/statistics/p ... n-province

So there are a minority, which got a mentionable size. And if we look into the AGA, it´s obvious that People, which have a migration backround from the three Go Kingdoms (China, Korea and Japan) are at Advantage. Otherwise the AGA topclass wouldn´t be that much dominated, by Players with roots in Asia. That Shows there are a big Group with a tradition.
I took a look in the AGA list and there are more Asian names at the top, than in Europe, even so that there came some strong Asians to Europe.

In the end doesn´t that Change one Thing, we have more tournaments, where good Players participate and raise their strength and EGF Players are participating more in Asian tournaments, to improve their strength, thats the key.

And with apprenticeship I meant, many West European Players wouldn´t see a Chance, to gain enough, for a good life, in East Europe you get better chances. Especially when you get some extras like an Athlete, like Javaness2 mentioned.
But there is a knew Generation coming, maybe we will see Pros from West Europe too in the next years. This year I doubt it, in the pro qualification, cause the best West European Player, Thomas Debarre from France 7d, don´t want to participate this year. Nethertheless it´s not impossible for Tanguy le Calve or Jonas Welticke for example, but they would have more Problems with Stanislaw Frejlak, Cornel Burzo and Lukas Podpera, than Thomas Debarre. But the next years I am not sure, what is coming.

Uberdude · **#59**

The next round is today, after the break for the European Grand Slam tournament which Mateusz won. He's on a great run of form, beating Andy Liu, Calvin Sun and Gansheng Shi in this event and Alexander Dinserstein, Ilya Shikshin, and Artem Kachanovsky in the grand slam. Can Eric Lui stop him? My bet is a no, but that Ryan has a good chance to.

Oberlappen · **#60**

Yeah he suprised a lot. He moved forward the last months, even so he were a bit lucky against And Liu (the opening was not good for Mateusz) and Artem Kachyanovski (Artem played something risky, while he was leading).

But sometimes luck is part of it. Now it´s Mateusz time, but I am not sure, if he is really the strongest now, or he just got a good phase. But even if he just got a good phase, he can now play equal to Artem Kachynovski and Ilya Shikshin.

EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match

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